ETF's with no ROC (2019)

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Aug 15th, 2021 11:23 am

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Apr 16th, 2020 9:43 am

GerryFolds [OP]: Newbie; Jul 27, 2019; 53 posts; 40 upvotes

Apr 16th, 2020 9:43 am

ETF's with no ROC (2019)

Hello!

I would like to compile a list of non-fixed income ETF's with/without ROC (Return of Capital) per share, for ease of taxes when it comes to index investing. This is by no means a comprehensive list, but I haven't been able to find one like it with the search function. Now it's always important to verify for yourself and after compiling this list it appears that just because a fund didn't pay out a ROC in one year, it won't for another year. These are all from Vanguard and all others are welcome to be added, this is just a starting point.

How I found these: https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individua ... ty/?prices
then scroll down to "Annual distributions" and I am listing the amount for the 2019 year.

Let me start the Without ROC List for 2019:
Canada Index ETF (VCE)
Developed All Cap ex U.S. Index ETF (VDU)
Developed All Cap ex U.S. Index ETF (CAD-hedged) (VEF)
Developed Asia Pacific All Cap Index ETF (VA)
Developed Asia Pacific All Cap Index ETF (CAD-hedged) (VAH)
Developed Europe All Cap Index ETF (VE)
Developed ex North America High Dividend Yield Index ETF (VIDY)
Global All Cap ex Canada Index ETF (VXC)
U.S. Dividend Appreciation Index ETF (CAD-hedged) (VGH)
U.S. Total Market Index ETF (CAD-hedged) (VUS)

With ROC:
Canada All Cap Index ETF (VCN) 2019 ROC- $0.030530
Canadian Capped REIT Index ETF (VRE) 2019 ROC- $0.693620
Canadian High Dividend Yield Index ETF (VDY) 2019 ROC - $0.000420
Developed All Cap ex North America Index ETF (VIU) 2019 ROC - $0.002430
Developed All Cap ex North America Index ETF (CAD-hedged) (VI) 2019 ROC - $0.001300
Developed Europe All Cap Index ETF (CAD-hedged) (VEH) 2019 ROC - $0.001720
Emerging Markets All Cap Index ETF (VEE) 2019 ROC - $0.001640
S&P 500 Index ETF (VFV) 2019 ROC - $0.000880
S&P 500 Index ETF (CAD-hedged) (VSP) 2019 ROC - $0.000460
U.S. Dividend Appreciation Index ETF (VGG) 2019 ROC - $0.000160
U.S. Total Market Index ETF (VUN) 2019 ROC - $0.000760

P.S.- Literally after posting the last fund I clicked on This Link and it looks like a one stop shop for all of the above info! Anyways let's build up this database and this can help serve as a starting point for anyone interested in this information and where to find it.

Last edited by GerryFolds on Apr 16th, 2020 4:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Thread Summary

Vanguard ETF ROC Distribution for 2019
https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individua ... docId=6787
Blackrock ETF ROC Distribution for 2019
https://www.blackrock.com/ca/individual ... -en-ca.pdf

19 replies

Apr 16th, 2020 9:49 am

GerryFolds [OP]: Newbie; Jul 27, 2019; 53 posts; 40 upvotes

Apr 16th, 2020 9:49 am

Here's the all encompassing sheet for Blackrock's ETF 2019 Distributions:
https://www.blackrock.com/ca/individual ... -en-ca.pdf

+1

Apr 16th, 2020 2:10 pm

freilona: Deal Addict; Aug 4, 2014; 3963 posts; 4721 upvotes; Toronto, ON

Apr 16th, 2020 2:10 pm

I almost got excited about VCE (and wondered how did I miss it - was checking a bunch of Canadian equities ETFs last year, to potentially replace HXT when their tax advantage was challenged) Alas, no magic here - VCE didn’t pay RoC in 2019, 2017, 2013 and 2011, but did pay it in all other years.. sigh

+2

Apr 16th, 2020 4:44 pm

GerryFolds [OP]: Newbie; Jul 27, 2019; 53 posts; 40 upvotes

Apr 16th, 2020 4:44 pm

freilona wrote: ↑ I almost got excited about VCE (and wondered how did I miss it - was checking a bunch of Canadian equities ETFs last year, to potentially replace HXT when their tax advantage was challenged) Alas, no magic here - VCE didn’t pay RoC in 2019, 2017, 2013 and 2011, but did pay it in all other years.. sigh

Yes that was very apparent while going through these distribution sheets, it will be very hard to predict if a fund will pay ROC out. Really this is just a starting point for ease of research. Also I edited the title and bolded an important statement in the original post!

+1

Apr 16th, 2020 5:12 pm

Deepwater: Deal Addict; Feb 1, 2012; 1994 posts; 3320 upvotes; Thunder Bay, ON

Apr 16th, 2020 5:12 pm

What's so hard about RoC? It's listed on my T3s and Summary of Trust Income from my broker. You have to track ACB anyway, so subtract any RoC paid from your total ACB. I'd rather do that than pick funds that aren't the best for me just to avoid some minor bookkeeping.

I solemnly swear, to never assume I have an inkling at which direction the market will head, and to never make any investments based on a timing strategy.

+6

Apr 16th, 2020 6:13 pm

freilona: Deal Addict; Aug 4, 2014; 3963 posts; 4721 upvotes; Toronto, ON

Apr 16th, 2020 6:13 pm

Deepwater wrote: ↑You have to track ACB anyway []

Not for Horizons Total Return ETFs or individual stocks (except REITs) that are held in one account

I don’t mind minor bookkeeping, but afraid it’d be too much for my husband if something were to happen to me.. What about your wife - do you think she’ll find your ACB records and will know how to continue or would have to hire someone to do it? Serious question as I keep contemplating what’s worse

+2

Apr 16th, 2020 6:14 pm

dreadsoap: Newbie; Feb 29, 2020; 70 posts; 67 upvotes

Apr 16th, 2020 6:14 pm

Is it possible for funds to forbid ROCs in their prospectus?

Apr 16th, 2020 8:53 pm

sckor: Sr. Member; Jul 1, 2006; 970 posts; 844 upvotes

Apr 16th, 2020 8:53 pm

Deepwater wrote: ↑ What's so hard about RoC? It's listed on my T3s and Summary of Trust Income from my broker. You have to track ACB anyway, so subtract any RoC paid from your total ACB. I'd rather do that than pick funds that aren't the best for me just to avoid some minor bookkeeping.

The one thing that is missing on the T3/summary of income (at least from CIBC IE) is the reinvested distributions that often happen at year end. It annoys me that they can get all of the RoC data down in one nice summary for the year, but miss that. You are paying taxes on that reinvested distribution and if you fail to adjust the cost base upwards you will get double taxed when you eventually sell. While it isn't really ROC per-se, it is one more thing to track and be aware of.

+2

Apr 16th, 2020 9:32 pm

TuxedoBlack: Deal Addict; Jul 8, 2013; 3003 posts; 4958 upvotes; Somewhere in AB

Apr 16th, 2020 9:32 pm

Deepwater wrote: ↑ What's so hard about RoC? It's listed on my T3s and Summary of Trust Income from my broker. You have to track ACB anyway, so subtract any RoC paid from your total ACB. I'd rather do that than pick funds that aren't the best for me just to avoid some minor bookkeeping.

Yes, it may be a minor bookkeeping item for YOU (and me) but for majority of investors, they have a difficult time staying in the market as is. The last thing we want is to complicate things further.

Also, if you're leveraging to invest by borrowing from your HELOC, make sure your records are super clear in order to ensure you're paying the correct amount of taxes.

Be Balanced. Be Diversified. Stay Invested.

Apr 16th, 2020 9:43 pm

Deepwater: Deal Addict; Feb 1, 2012; 1994 posts; 3320 upvotes; Thunder Bay, ON

Apr 16th, 2020 9:43 pm

freilona wrote: ↑ Not for Horizons Total Return ETFs or individual stocks (except REITs) that are held in one account I don’t mind minor bookkeeping, but afraid it’d be too much for my husband if something were to happen to me.. What about your wife - do you think she’ll find your ACB records and will know how to continue or would have to hire someone to do it? Serious question as I keep contemplating what’s worse

You still have to track ACB for all capital assets held in non-registered accounts, just stocks and non-distribution paying funds like HXT won't have RoC or Phantom Distributions. If you sold HXT last year you would still need to report any capital gain.

I solemnly swear, to never assume I have an inkling at which direction the market will head, and to never make any investments based on a timing strategy.

Apr 16th, 2020 9:51 pm

Deepwater: Deal Addict; Feb 1, 2012; 1994 posts; 3320 upvotes; Thunder Bay, ON

Apr 16th, 2020 9:51 pm

sckor wrote: ↑ The one thing that is missing on the T3/summary of income (at least from CIBC IE) is the reinvested distributions that often happen at year end. It annoys me that they can get all of the RoC data down in one nice summary for the year, but miss that. You are paying taxes on that reinvested distribution and if you fail to adjust the cost base upwards you will get double taxed when you eventually sell. While it isn't really ROC per-se, it is one more thing to track and be aware of.

Yes it is one of those mysteries that RoC is on T3s, but reinvested distributions are not reported on any tax slips. It might be that CRA requires RoC reported since it lowers ACB and if you don't track it you will under pay your taxes when selling. They don't care so much about reinvested distributions since not tracking it means the govt gets more taxes. (And they're gonna need all they can get.)

Reinvested distributions do appear on my TDDI statements, the March 2020 statement for 2019 distributions. They appear like a cash distribution paid offset by a DRIP of the same $ value (but with no change in the number of shares held).

I solemnly swear, to never assume I have an inkling at which direction the market will head, and to never make any investments based on a timing strategy.

+2

Apr 16th, 2020 10:16 pm

freilona: Deal Addict; Aug 4, 2014; 3963 posts; 4721 upvotes; Toronto, ON

Apr 16th, 2020 10:16 pm

Deepwater wrote: ↑If you sold HXT last year you would still need to report any capital gain.

I did sell HXT, but didn’t have to do any manual ACB calculations/adjustments - Questeade’s records were very accurate (they even deducted commissions for me from the sell proceeds! Dunno if other brokerages do it as well, was pleasantly surprised) So it was literally just entering 2 numbers (book value and sell value) from the tax form they provided into Turbotax

+1

Apr 17th, 2020 9:22 am

Deepwater: Deal Addict; Feb 1, 2012; 1994 posts; 3320 upvotes; Thunder Bay, ON

Apr 17th, 2020 9:22 am

freilona wrote: ↑ I did sell HXT, but didn’t have to do any manual ACB calculations/adjustments - Questeade’s records were very accurate (they even deducted commissions for me from the sell proceeds! Dunno if other brokerages do it as well, was pleasantly surprised) So it was literally just entering 2 numbers (book value and sell value) from the tax form they provided into Turbotax

Yes, similar with TDDI. Their ACBs are usually accurate and I get a T5008 when I sell that includes book value and proceeds of distribution. I have heard that ACB may not be correct if securities are transferred in kind from other brokers or journaled between USD and CAD accounts.

My left-brained engineering mind tells me to track it in a spreadsheet and keep all my trade confirmations anyway, in case the gummint comes knocking.

I solemnly swear, to never assume I have an inkling at which direction the market will head, and to never make any investments based on a timing strategy.

+1

Nov 2nd, 2020 4:01 pm

Malazk: Newbie; Jun 15, 2020; 16 posts; 3 upvotes

Nov 2nd, 2020 4:01 pm

So What is the summary ? what did you guys end up doing ?
I am starting my SM portfolio, looking for canadian dividend ETFs and I can not find any ETFs with "guaranteed" no ROC. the two lists mentioned above included.

Also, what about selecting individual stocks? do you also check each stock individually for ROC ? as I understand some of them still do, and it is not always straight forward to find this out.

Jan 6th, 2021 11:07 am

Mr Bean: Deal Addict; Sep 19, 2013; 2636 posts; 1018 upvotes; Winnipeg

Jan 6th, 2021 11:07 am

Malazk wrote: ↑ So What is the summary ? what did you guys end up doing ?
I am starting my SM portfolio, looking for canadian dividend ETFs and I can not find any ETFs with "guaranteed" no ROC. the two lists mentioned above included.

Also, what about selecting individual stocks? do you also check each stock individually for ROC ? as I understand some of them still do, and it is not always straight forward to find this out.

Since this was more tied to SM, I have posted my response in that thread.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams

Jan 6th, 2021 12:09 pm

thecdnhammer: Newbie; Dec 21, 2009; 16 posts; 2 upvotes; Hinterland

Jan 6th, 2021 12:09 pm

If you don't mind the higher MER, TD e-series mutual fund don't contain ROC by the looks of it?

2019 - Scroll down to page 9 for the e-series:
https://www.tdassetmanagement.com/docum ... all_en.pdf

2018 - Page 13:
https://www.tdassetmanagement.com/docum ... _funds.pdf

Aug 15th, 2021 12:03 am

GSXXRR: Deal Addict; Dec 15, 2001; 3354 posts; 1140 upvotes; Toronto

Aug 15th, 2021 12:03 am

Isn't it advantageous to have ETF that pay distribution with ROC in a non-registered account?

Because capital gain is taxed at a lower rate than dividend.

Aug 15th, 2021 6:17 am

S5: Deal Addict; Oct 4, 2009; 3326 posts; 2538 upvotes; Montreal

Aug 15th, 2021 6:17 am

GSXXRR wrote: ↑ Because capital gain is taxed at a lower rate than dividend.

That depends entirely on the province where you reside and your income level.

+1

Aug 15th, 2021 7:29 am

dubbers: Jr. Member; Jul 8, 2019; 186 posts; 250 upvotes

Aug 15th, 2021 7:29 am

Who the F cares about ROC? If in a taxable account, you still have to track your ACB either way.

If anything, I like seeing some ROC because that's tax deferred cash distribution for me to spend now but defer taxes until years down the road when I actually sell.

It's called a SPREADSHEET. Not that hard. OP complaining about this is just lazy or overthinking this.

Aug 15th, 2021 11:23 am

Mr Bean: Deal Addict; Sep 19, 2013; 2636 posts; 1018 upvotes; Winnipeg

Aug 15th, 2021 11:23 am

GSXXRR wrote: ↑ Isn't it advantageous to have ETF that pay distribution with ROC in a non-registered account?

Because capital gain is taxed at a lower rate than dividend.

I'd say it depends on whether you want distributions or not. Let me give you 2 examples -
1) A person in their 20s/30s who is accumulating would not need any income from their investment right now. For them, ROC is more paperwork and they would prefer an ETF with absolutely no ROC.
2) The case you're describing would be a person who has a big portfolio and relies on distribution as regular income (or portion of their income). In that case, if the dividends are not enough, then they'd prefer an ETF that has some ROC component to pad the income.

Of course, there are also other ways to achieve. i.e person 1 can always re-invest if they have ROC-laden ETF. Person 2 can always sell some ETFs to increase their income. But both of these "adjustments" come with some tracking/ inconvenience/ transaction costs.

In the beginning the Universe was created. This has made a lot of people very angry and been widely regarded as a bad move. -- Douglas Adams

+1

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