Automotive

Everything about EVs!

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May 2, 2017
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divx wrote: There is a report that EV doesn't charge at -7C.
https://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/no-wa ... 00238.html
LOL at that article. Guy has a broken car, blames it on the temperature, and now all EV's are not going to charge at -7.

If his car had broken in the summer, we would have gotten an article that EV's wont charge at 30C.

The real story here is that he tried to call Tesla service on Christmas Day and they didn't answer the phone. Shocking. I have never had an issue calling Toyota service on Christmas day so this is very scandalous for Tesla. /s
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Jul 19, 2004
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Maybe the Tesla price cuts are reducing demand on other EVs, got a message from a Kia dealer saying they are now taking orders again for their EV/Hybrid lineup. Before they wouldn't even take orders for them.
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Sep 30, 2007
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TheTall wrote: LOL at that article. Guy has a broken car, blames it on the temperature, and now all EV's are not going to charge at -7.

If his car had broken in the summer, we would have gotten an article that EV's wont charge at 30C.

The real story here is that he tried to call Tesla service on Christmas Day and they didn't answer the phone. Shocking. I have never had an issue calling Toyota service on Christmas day so this is very scandalous for Tesla. /s
Literally thousands of ICE cars don't start every cold morning, yet we never see any articles about these tragedies on Yahoo Finance.
But one Tesla drives to SC, not able to charge because of a defective sensor, and now its BREAKING NEWS!

My FFE spent multiple nights outside in -25C in 4 winters, yet every time it was able to start and take me to work.
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Mar 19, 2005
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TheTall wrote: They will bring the heat pump back as soon as they can get the chips. They just don't want to shut down production entirely because they are waiting on heat pump chips - which makes perfect sense.

Heat pump does make a good difference in power draw in most weather conditions. Can heat the cabin of my Ioniq 5 at -10C with ~1kW of power draw or less with the heat pump. Would be easily double or triple that without the heat pump. But you'll see a much bigger difference in low speed city driving than at highway speeds. At highway speeds, you can drain your battery in a few hours anyways, realistically you'd probably go around 2 hours between charges during a winter road trip.

Example:
Over 2 hours of highway driving, you are looking at ~2kWh (2.6%) of battery used with the heat pump, or 4-6kW (5-8%) without the heat pump. So between charges, that will be a 2.5 to 5% difference, which will translate to around 15-25km range reduction and just 2-3 mins extra charging time to get that back at a L3 charger.
If you're driving around the city, low speeds, it will take you many more hours of driving to drain your battery, so the heating will use a larger percentage and have a bigger impact on overall range. If I'm averaging 30km/hr and assuming around 300km winter range, that would take roughly 10 hours of driving to drain my battery with no heat (driving using ~10% per hour). Turn the heat pump on and it's using 1kW, that will use roughly 1.3% of my battery every hour. Heating a non-heat pump car will use roughly 2.6% to 3.9% every hour.

So the hourly percentage drop at 30km/h average city speeds, overall, would be:
Heat pump: 10% (driving) + 1.3% (heating) = 11.3% usage per hour = 8.8 hours of city driving time
Non-Heat pump: 10% (driving) + 2.6% or 3.9% (heating) = 12.6% to 13.9% usage per hour = 7.1 to 7.9 hours of city driving time

Realistically I don't know if I'm making a good case for the heat pump here. It saves some energy, yes, but for the average person it probably won't make a huge difference. At highway speeds, we're talking around 5% extra battery usage between charging stops. At city speeds, chances are you're not too worried about range anyway, unless you're someone who is driving around the city for the entire day every day, it likely won't matter.

Your electric bill will be a bit smaller with the heat pump, so that'll save you a bit of money in the long run (but cost you upfront for the heat pump).
So VW's number are either BS or there's a good chance they are not highway based ?

Like you're saying, I don't care losing range in the city but like you're saying, if at the end of the day, for a 3H trip it may take a charge of an extra 5-10 minutes, it's not a big deal and that could easily be mitigated with battery preconditioning. On the Mach E, Ford was not interesting into installing a Heat Pump due to increased weight among other thing.
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Apr 27, 2009
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darkman007e wrote: So VW's number are either BS or there's a good chance they are not highway based ?

Like you're saying, I don't care losing range in the city but like you're saying, if at the end of the day, for a 3H trip it may take a charge of an extra 5-10 minutes, it's not a big deal and that could easily be mitigated with battery preconditioning. On the Mach E, Ford was not interesting into installing a Heat Pump due to increased weight among other thing.
According to the app ABRP, for an ID.4, a drive from Calgary to Edmonton will take one charging stop. The heat pump will take 5 minutes less charging time than the PTC heater car.
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darkman007e wrote: So VW's number are either BS or there's a good chance they are not highway based ?

Like you're saying, I don't care losing range in the city but like you're saying, if at the end of the day, for a 3H trip it may take a charge of an extra 5-10 minutes, it's not a big deal and that could easily be mitigated with battery preconditioning. On the Mach E, Ford was not interesting into installing a Heat Pump due to increased weight among other thing.
They look pretty close to what I calculated for city driving. On the low end I had 7.1 hours of driving at 30km per hour, which would be 213km (without heat pump), and at the high end with heat pump I had 8.8 hours which would be 264km (51km difference). VW's chart shows about 230 vs 300km (70km difference).
Randy6560 wrote: According to the app ABRP, for an ID.4, a drive from Calgary to Edmonton will take one charging stop. The heat pump will take 5 minutes less charging time than the PTC heater car.
Seems about right. Would be pretty rare for a heat pump to save you a charging stop altogether, you'd have to be driving very close to the car's overall winter range, planning to arrive with close to 0%. Will just save a few minutes charging here and there.

For most people, and as a commuter car, heat pump will make little difference in your daily routine. Plug in the car at night, leave home in the morning with 80%. When you get home in the evening, the heat pump car will have a few extra percent left compared to the non-heat pump car, but you plug both in anyway. Average commuting distance in Canada is 12.9km, most EV's today have 350km+ range, which will be closer to 200km on cold winter days. 12.9*2 = 25.8km round trip = roughly 13% battery. If you charge to 80%, you can use the other 67% of your battery for heating, that'll be a lot of heat!
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Mar 18, 2005
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TheTall wrote:

Seems about right. Would be pretty rare for a heat pump to save you a charging stop altogether, you'd have to be driving very close to the car's overall winter range, planning to arrive with close to 0%. Will just save a few minutes charging here and there.

For most people, and as a commuter car, heat pump will make little difference in your daily routine. Plug in the car at night, leave home in the morning with 80%. When you get home in the evening, the heat pump car will have a few extra percent left compared to the non-heat pump car, but you plug both in anyway. Average commuting distance in Canada is 12.9km, most EV's today have 350km+ range, which will be closer to 200km on cold winter days. 12.9*2 = 25.8km round trip = roughly 13% battery. If you charge to 80%, you can use the other 67% of your battery for heating, that'll be a lot of heat!
This is a very difficult concept for people to grasp without having lived it. I don't blame, them, they've never driven like that before, and until you do, it seems very foreign, but I prefer the full tank every day when I leave the house, or the 80% full tank.

This ofcouse, assumes you have a somewhere to easily charge at night.
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xrvr wrote: Literally thousands of ICE cars don't start every cold morning, yet we never see any articles about these tragedies on Yahoo Finance.
But one Tesla drives to SC, not able to charge because of a defective sensor, and now its BREAKING NEWS!

My FFE spent multiple nights outside in -25C in 4 winters, yet every time it was able to start and take me to work.
The reason why you don't hear about the ICE vehicles is because it's a 5 second fix with a jumper pack. It's not news worthy.
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mxthor3 wrote: The reason why you don't hear about the ICE vehicles is because it's a 5 second fix with a jumper pack. It's not news worthy.
On that note - how was this broken Tesla news worthy? Article makes it sound like it's going to be an issue with ALL EV's not being able to charge at -7 degrees. The guy had a broken car. Teslas that aren't broken charge fine at much colder temperatures than -7.

It'd be equivalent to them writing a news story about someone's ICE car with a broken starter motor, and making it sound like all gas cars won't start at -7.
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TheTall wrote: On that note - how was this broken Tesla news worthy? Article makes it sound like it's going to be an issue with ALL EV's not being able to charge at -7 degrees. The guy had a broken car. Teslas that aren't broken charge fine at much colder temperatures than -7.

It'd be equivalent to them writing a news story about someone's ICE car with a broken starter motor, and making it sound like all gas cars won't start at -7.
I don't think it's news worthy at all, my comment wasn't about how it's news worthy. But the comparison to a ICE vehicle with a dead battery is apples > oranges.
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TheTall wrote: On that note - how was this broken Tesla news worthy? Article makes it sound like it's going to be an issue with ALL EV's not being able to charge at -7 degrees. The guy had a broken car. Teslas that aren't broken charge fine at much colder temperatures than -7.

It'd be equivalent to them writing a news story about someone's ICE car with a broken starter motor, and making it sound like all gas cars won't start at -7.
Out of Spec seems really good at finding broken Teslas. In their heat pump vs resistive test, the older 3 appears to have a broken heater. In addition, they use a cheap $13 bi-metallic thermometer that's still in the box. So, the heat has to transfer to the cardboard box, then into the thermometer. They could've bought a BBQ thermometer that could measure the air temperature. There's no need to bring the entire car's thermal mass up to set temp.
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rf134a wrote: Out of Spec seems really good at finding broken Teslas. In their heat pump vs resistive test, the older 3 appears to have a broken heater. In addition, they use a cheap $13 bi-metallic thermometer that's still in the box. So, the heat has to transfer to the cardboard box, then into the thermometer. They could've bought a BBQ thermometer that could measure the air temperature. There's no need to bring the entire car's thermal mass up to set temp.
I can't stand Out of Spec. His content is just trash IMO.

I did a quick glance at that stupid video which was completely meaningless without any actual measurement on energy use. Wife's Model 3 has PTC and my Y has HP. Her PTC works just fine and will heat the cabin to 28C in -20C weather with zero issues. In the video however you can hear the annoying HP and I can feel the vibration in the cabin as well. In real world use between my wife PTC and my HP it's negligible in terms of range increase/loss.

I'll say it again and again. Current HP are overhyped, absolutely far from earth shattering in terms of "efficiency".
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EP32k2 wrote: I can't stand Out of Spec. His content is just trash IMO.

I did a quick glance at that stupid video which was completely meaningless without any actual measurement on energy use. Wife's Model 3 has PTC and my Y has HP. Her PTC works just fine and will heat the cabin to 28C in -20C weather with zero issues. In the video however you can hear the annoying HP and I can feel the vibration in the cabin as well. In real world use between my wife PTC and my HP it's negligible in terms of range increase/loss.

I'll say it again and again. Current HP are overhyped, absolutely far from earth shattering in terms of "efficiency".
Sounds like there might be something wrong with the heat pump in your Y if it's vibrating the cabin enough to be annoying. Might want to get it checked out.

Ioniq 5 heat pump is barely audible even at a standstill. No noticeable vibration. Same with my old eGolf heat pump, could just hear a bit of fan noise when it was on.

Heat pump might have a bigger advantage with bigger vehicles with larger cabins, would be interesting to see how much power it takes to heat an F-150 or a future Ford Expedition EV with a heat pump vs resistive heater. Might be a much more noticeable difference if you're drawing a continual 4kW to heat something like that.

I do love my cottage heat pump though, went from baseboard electric heating to an 18,000 btu heat pump, it cut my heating bill by over 60%.
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TheTall wrote: Sounds like there might be something wrong with the heat pump in your Y if it's vibrating the cabin enough to be annoying. Might want to get it checked out.

Ioniq 5 heat pump is barely audible even at a standstill. No noticeable vibration. Same with my old eGolf heat pump, could just hear a bit of fan noise when it was on.

Heat pump might have a bigger advantage with bigger vehicles with larger cabins, would be interesting to see how much power it takes to heat an F-150 or a future Ford Expedition EV with a heat pump vs resistive heater. Might be a much more noticeable difference if you're drawing a continual 4kW to heat something like that.

I do love my cottage heat pump though, went from baseboard electric heating to an 18,000 btu heat pump, it cut my heating bill by over 60%.
This is how the heat pump is in Tesla. Like I said you can hear it in Out of Specs video ramping up. Just imagine how loud it is on the outside.
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EP32k2 wrote: This is how the heat pump is in Tesla. Like I said you can hear it in Out of Specs video ramping up. Just imagine how loud it is on the outside.
Just watched it, didn't sound too loud. I'm sure you can't even hear it over road noise when you're moving?

Was surprised the heat pump was able to heat the car so much faster though - even with his crappy in box thermometers, they were at least both in box so it was a fair test between the two. So maybe Tesla put the heat pump in more for comfort reasons (can in theory get 15kW of heat out of 5kW draw, and heat the car a lot faster than a 5kW PTC heater).

There's some discussion here that the Heat Pump can draw 7kW and the PTC heater is 5kW:
https://teslamotorsclub.com/tmc/threads ... 976/page-5

That's a huge heat pump if true. My cottage 18,000 btu unit runs on 240v 12A at max. That would be just shy of 3kW.
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EP32k2 wrote: I can't stand Out of Spec. His content is just trash IMO.

I did a quick glance at that stupid video which was completely meaningless without any actual measurement on energy use. Wife's Model 3 has PTC and my Y has HP. Her PTC works just fine and will heat the cabin to 28C in -20C weather with zero issues. In the video however you can hear the annoying HP and I can feel the vibration in the cabin as well. In real world use between my wife PTC and my HP it's negligible in terms of range increase/loss.

I'll say it again and again. Current HP are overhyped, absolutely far from earth shattering in terms of "efficiency".
His content is just trash ?

Either you're just a hater or you're basing yourself on just 1 soso video that Kyle himself said it wasn't a scientific comparaison.

The technique he uses for his 70 MPH range test seems fairly reliable and if I'm not mistaken, he also sometimes contributes to Inside EV.

Same goes for the DC charging speed that are very detailed.

His videos are not meant to be full car reviews. You have tons of channels for that and often, the good one like Doug Demuro doesn't say anything about the charge and the range.

It's not like the EPA rating means much when we're talking about highway range and unfortunately, the EPA like transport Canada have a weird gas equivalent consumption that doesn't mean anything instead of simply giving the city and highway consumption per kW.
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darkman007e wrote: His videos are not meant to be full car reviews. You have tons of channels for that and often, the good one like Doug Demuro doesn't say anything about the charge and the range.
Doug gets a lot of stuff wrong about the cars he's reviewing. He also lets his personal bias get in the way of objectivity.

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