Automotive

Everything about EVs!

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Nov 20, 2005
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CanadianLurker wrote: There aren’t any non-commercial self-driving vehicles currently available at all.

That said, most consumer vehicles that have adaptive cruise control use a radar-based system. Not sure if the terminology is radar or lidar but there are millions of vehicles on the road with adaptive cruise control that use radar/lidar to detect objects ahead and then change speed (or brake) accordingly.

Tesla/Musk steadfastly refuse to use such systems and so Tesla’s all rely on cameras only. There have now been several Tesla collisions involving large stationary objects blocking the raid that the cameras have failed to identify as a problem.

Personally, I think that the best approach would be to use both systems. Use the cameras as the main system and radar/lidar as a supplemental system for an added margin of safety. But given Musk’s stubbornness it isn’t likely to happen unless there are more collisions that finally force his hand.
The accidents involving large stationary objects were due to improper usage of the system, users still need to pay attention and take control. As you said, there aren't any truly non-commercial self-driving cars yet, so how can you say the solution is faulty without using lidar? The current solution simply wasn't programmed to do it as users are expected to follow the instructions, doesn't mean it can't be achieved. Tesla's have both radar and vision and with hw3.0 (FSD HW), the software hasn't even caught up to the HW limitations.

While I'm sure Lidar would be useful, it's simply not economical IMO to pass it onto the end consumer when EV's are still expensive in comparison to ICE cars. Musk is not against LIDAR technology either, it's used on Crew Dragon to dock onto the ISS. It has its place and if autonomous driving level 4-5 can be achieved without it, then the better it is for the end consumer.
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Jan 8, 2009
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pitabread wrote:
While I'm sure Lidar would be useful, it's simply not economical IMO to pass it onto the end consumer when EV's are still expensive in comparison to ICE cars.
I feel the same way with Autopilot. Why do consumers have to pay for 8 cameras when most people are happy with just one for backing up.
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Martin (deal addict) wrote: I feel the same way with Autopilot. Why do consumers have to pay for 8 cameras when most people are happy with just one for backing up.
Cameras are not double-digit price ticket components and not only used for AP. They are used for AEB as well and is standard, not an optional item that people need to pay for separately.
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pitabread wrote: Cameras are not double-digit price ticket components and not only used for AP. They are used for AEB as well and is standard, not an optional item that people need to pay for separately.
My point is exactly that - they are not an option but built into every TM3. Other manufacturers don't need them for AEB and apparently a TM3 has radar as well which is what other manufacturers use for AEB without 8 cameras as well.

I would say each of these cameras is more than $10 let alone the system they are part of. Probably adds $500 or more to the vehicle when everything is taken into account (design, development, systems integration, specification, procurement etc etc).
"Never wrestle with a pig. You'll both get dirty, and the pig likes it"
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Nov 20, 2005
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Martin (deal addict) wrote: My point is exactly that - they are not an option but built into every TM3. Other manufacturers don't need them for AEB and apparently a TM3 has radar as well which is what other manufacturers use for AEB without 8 cameras as well.

I would say each of these cameras is more than $10 let alone the system they are part of. Probably adds $500 or more to the vehicle when everything is taken into account (design, development, systems integration, specification, procurement etc etc).
When I said double digits in talking about in double-digit thousands like lidar. $500 in the grand scheme of things for a car is minor and if you look up lots of other systems with AEB, not all of them are all that great.
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Sep 1, 2004
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pitabread wrote: $500 in the grand scheme of things for a car is minor.
Most manufacturers disagrees. If you sell 300k/year units with an unnecessary $500 parts with lose the company $150M.

Tesla has made other use of those cameras and it also help on data gathering to offset that cost. And nobody will mind that premium since they are the only game in town.

But a commercially viable alternative that is cost effective for other manufacturers to equip their cars may show up around 2025. Tesla's lead is narrowing.
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Jul 28, 2007
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Don't forget sentry mode. Smiling Face With Open Mouth
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Sep 21, 2004
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I see the Tesla crash is still a hot topic here. This is a video explaining some technical information about the AP & radar system.

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Oct 26, 2003
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radeonboy wrote: We/Canada can build it, but why we don't is another reason.
Or just do what Australia did and build and sell high speed EV chargers for the world. Australia did it despite not even being a large EV player to begin with.
Canada needs to use their resources and diversify their portfolio. Hanging on to oil for far too long is/has going to bite them in the bum. Be a leader and lead, don't follow. We could have had the Avro Arrow and been a leader, SMH.
Australia is the world leading EVSE producer? That is news to me. As for reason not to build anything in Canada, that is because we are not an investor friendly country, and it is impossible to produce anything without generating GHG.
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Xtrema wrote: Most manufacturers disagrees. If you sell 300k/year units with an unnecessary $500 parts with lose the company $150M.

Tesla has made other use of those cameras and it also help on data gathering to offset that cost. And nobody will mind that premium since they are the only game in town.

But a commercially viable alternative that is cost effective for other manufacturers to equip their cars may show up around 2025. Tesla's lead is narrowing.
I'm talking about for end consumer, my original point was lidar versus cameras on the car and passing cost onto customers. If you want to pick and choose sentences out of a paragraph then you can put whatever narrative you want.
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Mar 22, 2004
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divx wrote: Australia is the world leading EVSE producer? That is news to me. As for reason not to build anything in Canada, that is because we are not an investor friendly country, and it is impossible to produce anything without generating GHG.
Australia is one of a handful globally that are successful.

First example of out many others. You know those Chargepoint Level 3 chargers in USA/Canada? They are Australian made from Brisbane. They sell the same models throughout the world and slap a different name on it to one specific to that region's market. They continue to secure investments worldwide, already producing inside USA, they are everywhere.

Second example. Those IONITY 350kW rapid chargers across Europe? Made by Tritium too.

Tritium is a story of an Australian company competing successfully against large players in a global market. They were designing and manufacturing these EVSE's long before they even had EVs on Australian roads. They do it out of a 3500 square meter production facility.

Canada could do the same. We can't and should not rely on oil, we are falling behind fast. We can't have our eggs in one basket, we need to diversify ASAP.
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Oct 26, 2003
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radeonboy wrote: Australia is one of a handful globally that are successful.
First example of out many others. You know those Chargepoint Level 3 chargers in USA/Canada? They are Australian made from Brisbane. They sell the same models throughout the world and slap a different name on it to one specific to that region's market. They continue to secure investments worldwide, already producing inside USA, they are everywhere.
Second example. Those IONITY 350kW rapid chargers across Europe? Made by Tritium too.
Tritium is a story of an Australian company competing successfully against large players in a global market. They were designing and manufacturing these EVSE's long before they even had EVs on Australian roads. They do it out of a 3500 square meter production facility.
Canada could do the same. We can't and should not rely on oil, we are falling behind fast. We can't have our eggs in one basket, we need to diversify ASAP.
I would like to see Canada produce something too but that is just not something liberals want. These L3 chargers gets imported from the States, even the so called made in Canada L3 chargers uses 480V, such a pain in the ass to provide transformer just for the chargers.
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Feb 12, 2010
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divx wrote: I would like to see Canada produce something too but that is just not something liberals want. These L3 chargers gets imported from the States, even the so called made in Canada L3 chargers uses 480V, such a pain in the ass to provide transformer just for the chargers.
Did the Australian government help their EVSE producers somehow?
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ciuvak wrote: Did the Australian government help their EVSE producers somehow?
Not sure, everyone is building them to US spec though, including the manufacturer in Canada.
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Feb 12, 2010
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divx wrote: Not sure, everyone is building them to US spec though, including the manufacturer in Canada.
but, but, the libralz...

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