Real Estate

Festival Condos Vaughan - where’s the hype?

  • Last Updated:
  • Nov 16th, 2020 11:49 pm
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Jul 15, 2020
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oasis100 wrote: 20 years? lol
Look at downtown Markham, how long that has taken to build by Remington. and its no where near completion.
Each condo takes roughly 3-4 years to complete. They need multiple projects going on at the same time.
how long did it take cityplace? they have like 20+ building there,,
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Jul 23, 2011
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Good analysis thanks for this. Agree it’s an appreciation play.
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BearBullBear wrote: how long did it take cityplace? they have like 20+ building there,,
cityplace just hit 20 years this year.
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deal_with_singh wrote: I believe he meant Cityplace was the one with a lack of amenities rather than Vaughan.
I respect all your posts, but I just can't see this Festival condo accumulating value at the same speed as some other areas. I think there's a huge interest in cheaper condos and that they'll appreciate faster.

Look at the rent falling in value:
anyone-having-hard-time-renting-their-t ... 2391552/4/

While this builder builds, there will be a drop in condo prices (already on its way, worse when CERB ends), and its current pricing is as if the market is going up and they're pricing in a lot of the growth. However, if you had bought a pre-con townhouse or even older townhouse and fixed it up I think you'd get more profit faster as you'd open up your market to starter house hunters and the price isn't far off from this Festival condo (what, $700k-800k with parking? that's a townhouse).
hi!
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masterhapposai wrote: I respect all your posts, but I just can't see this Festival condo accumulating value at the same speed as some other areas. I think there's a huge interest in cheaper condos and that they'll appreciate faster.

Look at the rent falling in value:
anyone-having-hard-time-renting-their-t ... 2391552/4/

While this builder builds, there will be a drop in condo prices (already on its way, worse when CERB ends), and its current pricing is as if the market is going up and they're pricing in a lot of the growth. However, if you had bought a pre-con townhouse or even older townhouse and fixed it up I think you'd get more profit faster as you'd open up your market to starter house hunters and the price isn't far off from this Festival condo (what, $700k-800k with parking? that's a townhouse).
Well this condo won't be done till mid 2024 earliest realistically, covid19 will be over by then and rents recovered is the thought

Obviously if you're a bear and think RE prices will fall over next 5+ years, RE be it condo or TH is not for you

How do you buy an old/resale TH with only 20% down over 2.5 years and then no payment until it's done?
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I am a real estate bull. but with condos, you really have to be cautious with location.
Where's the rental market for this location as an investor? Is it going to be students from York? Are there a lot of jobs in the area?
Whats the resale right now with TC condos coming on market shortly.
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Oct 29, 2015
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CondoMan98 wrote: Reading posts like this make me nervous and force me to re-read all of my P&S agreements! Smiling Face With Open Mouth And Cold Sweat

It is smart you are diversifying you’re condo portfolio by area. Covid has shown us that you can’t only invest downtown; it’s risky. I’ve done the same, but not by accident. Downtown kept getting more and more expensive, and I was forced to go farther and farther from the core. If I didn’t have 4 pre-cons already, I would probably go for Festival. I am more intrigued because of the build quality. But, I still she closing costs on 4 condos, so I have to save for that...

Just curious, whats your gameplan to finance the 4 condos come closing time?
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masterhapposai wrote: I respect all your posts, but I just can't see this Festival condo accumulating value at the same speed as some other areas. I think there's a huge interest in cheaper condos and that they'll appreciate faster.

Look at the rent falling in value:
anyone-having-hard-time-renting-their-t ... 2391552/4/

While this builder builds, there will be a drop in condo prices (already on its way, worse when CERB ends), and its current pricing is as if the market is going up and they're pricing in a lot of the growth. However, if you had bought a pre-con townhouse or even older townhouse and fixed it up I think you'd get more profit faster as you'd open up your market to starter house hunters and the price isn't far off from this Festival condo (what, $700k-800k with parking? that's a townhouse).
More than aware of the rent falling, particularly in downtown as there is mass exodus from "WFH", on top of airbnb playing a role driving owners to either sell or add long term units to the supply. A lot of people that were formerly renting downtown on a month to month have no trouble ending their lease and buying a place of their own on GTA outskirts causing temporary rises in those areas from the rush of new buyers.

However, I am in the group that believes once we have a vaccine early next year, Summer 2021 will match Summer 2019 in the sense that things will return to norm, and continue rising in GTA Driven markets. The demand to be back closer to Toronto will return causing areas like downtown, and along transit lines like VMC to grow at a faster pace than others.

The added community feel/amenities at play with Festival are really what I see as "premium/luxurious" where both buyers/renters will be attracted to. On top of that the build quality and overall reputation of Menkes is just the cherry on top here.

Remember, there are all kinds of risk profiles when it comes to investments, and each individual will have their own risk tolerance. While you may prefer a fixer-upper , others may see risk of unknown/unestimatable expenses etc. I personally don't dabble in that market, but others I'm sure can comment on that.
oasis100 wrote: I am a real estate bull. but with condos, you really have to be cautious with location.
Where's the rental market for this location as an investor? Is it going to be students from York? Are there a lot of jobs in the area?
Whats the resale right now with TC condos coming on market shortly.
To me thats what I like about this area, the spectrum is broad. You can have students from York U, and potentially even those from Ryerson/UofT as potentials as its along the subway line. You can have professionals working across the street at the Big 4 audit firms, banks, or the new commercial buildings coming up.

You can have commuters to downtown, north york, etc.

You can access first time home buyers, and younger generations who feel the importance of having all these amenities.

TC will be more comparable once units are sold on regular sale. Price difference till then is about $120-$150/sqft for a premium builder, premium amenities and 4 year closing
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deal_with_singh wrote: More than aware of the rent falling, particularly in downtown as there is mass exodus from "WFH", on top of airbnb playing a role driving owners to either sell or add long term units to the supply. A lot of people that were formerly renting downtown on a month to month have no trouble ending their lease and buying a place of their own on GTA outskirts causing temporary rises in those areas from the rush of new buyers.

However, I am in the group that believes once we have a vaccine early next year, Summer 2021 will match Summer 2019 in the sense that things will return to norm, and continue rising in GTA Driven markets. The demand to be back closer to Toronto will return causing areas like downtown, and along transit lines like VMC to grow at a faster pace than others.
It is easy to be bearish at the bottom.

I think the condo landscape (at least downtown) looks awful right now, but I am a bull long-term. I have put my money where my mouth is and I have continued to invest in pre-construction condos in the GTA (latest purchase was in July 2020 once I realized that it wasn't going to be the end of the world).

I know for certain that in 3-5 years, once things are back to normal, things will be up again. I also know that the bears who are posting all of their articles about mortgage deferrals, end of CERB, high growth in supply, etc. will not have bought anyways.

The primary assumption of investing is a belief in the future. Invest for the long term!
Called the bottom.
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deal_with_singh wrote: More than aware of the rent falling, particularly in downtown as there is mass exodus from "WFH", on top of airbnb playing a role driving owners to either sell or add long term units to the supply. A lot of people that were formerly renting downtown on a month to month have no trouble ending their lease and buying a place of their own on GTA outskirts causing temporary rises in those areas from the rush of new buyers.

However, I am in the group that believes once we have a vaccine early next year, Summer 2021 will match Summer 2019 in the sense that things will return to norm, and continue rising in GTA Driven markets. The demand to be back closer to Toronto will return causing areas like downtown, and along transit lines like VMC to grow at a faster pace than others.

The added community feel/amenities at play with Festival are really what I see as "premium/luxurious" where both buyers/renters will be attracted to. On top of that the build quality and overall reputation of Menkes is just the cherry on top here.

Remember, there are all kinds of risk profiles when it comes to investments, and each individual will have their own risk tolerance. While you may prefer a fixer-upper , others may see risk of unknown/unestimatable expenses etc. I personally don't dabble in that market, but others I'm sure can comment on that.



To me thats what I like about this area, the spectrum is broad. You can have students from York U, and potentially even those from Ryerson/UofT as potentials as its along the subway line. You can have professionals working across the street at the Big 4 audit firms, banks, or the new commercial buildings coming up.

You can have commuters to downtown, north york, etc.

You can access first time home buyers, and younger generations who feel the importance of having all these amenities.

TC will be more comparable once units are sold on regular sale. Price difference till then is about $120-$150/sqft for a premium builder, premium amenities and 4 year closing
Right. When you have TTC in a walking distance you dont have to live next to your university or work.

There are tons of uoft or ryerson students living in North York not because it’s near their schools but also because its a decent area with relatively cheaper rent compared to core downtown. Same goes to people who work downtown.

VMC area being more affordable in rent and resale, i am betting my money here. There definitely could be better options and areas but overall i had good experience with investing in new master planned communities and cities elsewhere. I can see something similar happening here too.
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Jan 5, 2020
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I feel that the TTC station here wont add much value to the neighbourhood as much as people think. The area is not serviced by TTC buses which imo makes commuting unreliable if you looking to travel somewhere away from a subway station. It also increases the costs since you have to pay two separate fares.

Also, there are no noteworthy destinations on the subway line close to the VMC. For example, the station before VMC is Hwy407 station which is adjacent to a huge cemetery. I have no idea why they have a station there. The only noteworthy destination nearby is York University. Downtown is just way too far and you are better off being close to a GO train station if you are looking to commute to downtown.

If people are looking for more affordable options, the neighbourhood just south of the VMC is very affordable and also can be close to subway stations.

In order for VMC to be a success, it needs to stand on its own. I dont see the VMC being a good area in terms of being able to commute to other areas in the GTA.

That being said, I would rather invest in other areas such as central/east North York, Thornhill, Richmond Hill, or even Markham. These areas have a lot more development potential and are less risky as they are in more developed neighborhoods.
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Has anyone actually spent time in the VMC area? I have a lot of foot/car time in around the KPMG office and it's a zoo. Maybe I am too jaded because I've had to spend a lot of on the ground time there, but I agree the subway station while nice still doesn't address the infrastructure/urban planning mess surrounding the entire area which is 100% dependent on a car. I mean lining up for elevators during downtown rush hour in junky downtown condos is bad enough, but at least you have diversity and everything around you. Take the same building concept, put it in the middle of nowhere with 7-8 lanes of traffic with nothing really being walkable for the next 5+ years and I see nothing appealing.

York has always been and will remain a commuter school, I highly doubt these condos will if at all cater to students. There is plenty of affordable housing within walking distance of the school as is, there are also more appealing condo rentals with express shuttles around downsview which are more attractive for the typical full time worker/part time York student.

Again, this is not to bash Festival, as mentioned I do believe in the long term appreciation of the area, but the price per foot is not justifiable.

People really need to understand the area, the benefits they are being "sold" are very different from what will be realized.
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BearBullBear wrote: Right. When you have TTC in a walking distance you dont have to live next to your university or work.

There are tons of uoft or ryerson students living in North York not because it’s near their schools but also because its a decent area with relatively cheaper rent compared to core downtown. Same goes to people who work downtown.

VMC area being more affordable in rent and resale, i am betting my money here. There definitely could be better options and areas but overall i had good experience with investing in new master planned communities and cities elsewhere. I can see something similar happening here too.
While I agree, this location is still too far. Yes, it's near subway station, but do you know what it's like to take the subway in rush hour from VMC downtown? I used to take it from North York to Ryerson 15+ years ago and it was hell. That's when the subway system had less people riding it. I figure Ryerson/UofT students may live further North, just not as far as here. I think VMC is more for York students.

Personally like locations where I have a higher chance of finding tenants who can pay. That remains downtown. Revisit in 5 years. Those who bought downtown will be ahead of those who bought here IMO. Jobs, entertainment, school, etc. Downtown can't be matched by Vaughan which frankly if I was young and single...would never live there. That isn't to knock on Vaughan. As a family man I would live there....but there is nothing that attracts young, single, upwardly mobile people to that area.
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BearBullBear wrote: Right. When you have TTC in a walking distance you dont have to live next to your university or work.

There are tons of uoft or ryerson students living in North York not because it’s near their schools but also because its a decent area with relatively cheaper rent compared to core downtown. Same goes to people who work downtown.

VMC area being more affordable in rent and resale, i am betting my money here. There definitely could be better options and areas but overall i had good experience with investing in new master planned communities and cities elsewhere. I can see something similar happening here too.
Exactly my train of thought here. And this isn't just a "point near a subway" (i.e. like Kipling station - still feels like a "ghetto"). If it turns out to be half as good as they're presenting it with all the features and amenities the demand will just follow and it will really make this the place to be type thing.
Newuserid wrote: I feel that the TTC station here wont add much value to the neighbourhood as much as people think. The area is not serviced by TTC buses which imo makes commuting unreliable if you looking to travel somewhere away from a subway station. It also increases the costs since you have to pay two separate fares.

Also, there are no noteworthy destinations on the subway line close to the VMC. For example, the station before VMC is Hwy407 station which is adjacent to a huge cemetery. I have no idea why they have a station there. The only noteworthy destination nearby is York University. Downtown is just way too far and you are better off being close to a GO train station if you are looking to commute to downtown.

If people are looking for more affordable options, the neighbourhood just south of the VMC is very affordable and also can be close to subway stations.

In order for VMC to be a success, it needs to stand on its own. I dont see the VMC being a good area in terms of being able to commute to other areas in the GTA.

That being said, I would rather invest in other areas such as central/east North York, Thornhill, Richmond Hill, or even Markham. These areas have a lot more development potential and are less risky as they are in more developed neighborhoods.
I don't understand what purpose TTC busses would serve in the area of Vaughan? Busses would be for local transport, i.e. in and around vaughan which would be VIVA/YRT, and even Züm to a lesser extent.

The Subway would be your route to Toronto at which point you can get off at your closest stop and take a transfer on a bus, thats always been the purpose of a subway system in toronto, where if your destination is not on the subway line, you're taking a transfer from the subway through Streetcar or bus. There is also no added cost, transfers between TTC Subway and Streetcar or Bus do not add anything to the fare.

On your point of Go Station - outside of the Lakeshore line that runs very often, most Go Trains are infrequent, including the lines running across vaughan, or Kitchner/Brampton area. They are also about 3 times the fare.

VMC to Union Station is a 40 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes.
VMC to Yorkdale Mall is a 20 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes.
VMC to York University is a 7 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes <-- It took longer than that for me to walk from my campus residence to the main campus in my University days....
VMC to UofT St George is a 35 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes
VMC to YYZ connecting to Go at 407 Station - 45 minutes!

Which brings me to the point of whats the purpose of the 407 Stop? It's a Go Transit Hub for your intercity bus connections.
RichmondCA wrote: Has anyone actually spent time in the VMC area? I have a lot of foot/car time in around the KPMG office and it's a zoo. Maybe I am too jaded because I've had to spend a lot of on the ground time there, but I agree the subway station while nice still doesn't address the infrastructure/urban planning mess surrounding the entire area which is 100% dependent on a car. I mean lining up for elevators during downtown rush hour in junky downtown condos is bad enough, but at least you have diversity and everything around you. Take the same building concept, put it in the middle of nowhere with 7-8 lanes of traffic with nothing really being walkable for the next 5+ years and I see nothing appealing.

York has always been and will remain a commuter school, I highly doubt these condos will if at all cater to students. There is plenty of affordable housing within walking distance of the school as is, there are also more appealing condo rentals with express shuttles around downsview which are more attractive for the typical full time worker/part time York student.

Again, this is not to bash Festival, as mentioned I do believe in the long term appreciation of the area, but the price per foot is not justifiable.
Yes, I used to work in the area for PwC (right beside the KPMG office). It is a zoo in terms of traffic, a lot of that had to do with the ongoing construction. The area is less car dependent than what you think. The PwC office for example there doesn't even offer free parking to staff. The expectation is that the transit system is sufficient, and it pretty much is. Festival isn't even closing until 2024, and more likely 2025 where things like infrastructure should already see improvements.

All of the commercial real estate being built along in the festival community is what you'll find walkable eventually.

Even looking at current amenities:
Walmart right across the street
Ikea right to the side
Costco - 4 minute bus ride followed by a 10 minute walk
Cineplex 4 minute bus ride followed by a 5 minute walk
CT/Fortinos/Toysrus - 6 minute bus ride followed by a 3-4 minute walk

You've got almost any restaurant you can think of in one of the areas mentioned above:
Moxies, Scaddabush, Shoeless Joes, Tapanyaki/Hibachi, St Louis, Earls, any kind of fast food chain you can think of, various mexican tex mex, and a bunch more that I can keep listing. And thats just today, before festival and everything it brings along.
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Sep 15, 2012
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Mississauga
So how is the demand for this so far?

I am still on the fence...

To the brokers here:

how many units will be released in round one?
Will everyone get a unit? Is demand high? Or are people backing out due to high price and still no word on parking costs
Price increase for next release ?
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kesleaf wrote: So how is the demand for this so far?

I am still on the fence...

To the brokers here:

how many units will be released in round one?
Will everyone get a unit? Is demand high? Or are people backing out due to high price and still no word on parking costs
Price increase for next release ?
Demand is high.

If there were 100 units being released before pricing, there were 200 people waiting. Out of the 200, 150 still remain regardless of price. (These are just illustrative numbers).

Not sure how many units are being released yet, more information will be known tomorrow.
Not everyone will get the unit they want for sure. Demand on particular units is extremely high, where as some units no one wants.
The menkes model is increase often. You'll see increases within a week in my opinion.
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deal_with_singh wrote: Exactly my train of thought here. And this isn't just a "point near a subway" (i.e. like Kipling station - still feels like a "ghetto"). If it turns out to be half as good as they're presenting it with all the features and amenities the demand will just follow and it will really make this the place to be type thing.
I don't understand what purpose TTC busses would serve in the area of Vaughan? Busses would be for local transport, i.e. in and around vaughan which would be VIVA/YRT, and even Züm to a lesser extent.

The Subway would be your route to Toronto at which point you can get off at your closest stop and take a transfer on a bus, thats always been the purpose of a subway system in toronto, where if your destination is not on the subway line, you're taking a transfer from the subway through Streetcar or bus. There is also no added cost, transfers between TTC Subway and Streetcar or Bus do not add anything to the fare.

On your point of Go Station - outside of the Lakeshore line that runs very often, most Go Trains are infrequent, including the lines running across vaughan, or Kitchner/Brampton area. They are also about 3 times the fare.

VMC to Union Station is a 40 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes.
VMC to Yorkdale Mall is a 20 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes.
VMC to York University is a 7 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes <-- It took longer than that for me to walk from my campus residence to the main campus in my University days....
VMC to UofT St George is a 35 minute Subway ride that is available every 4 minutes
VMC to YYZ connecting to Go at 407 Station - 45 minutes!

Which brings me to the point of whats the purpose of the 407 Stop? It's a Go Transit Hub for your intercity bus connections.
Yes, I used to work in the area for PwC (right beside the KPMG office). It is a zoo in terms of traffic, a lot of that had to do with the ongoing construction. The area is less car dependent than what you think. The PwC office for example there doesn't even offer free parking to staff. The expectation is that the transit system is sufficient, and it pretty much is. Festival isn't even closing until 2024, and more likely 2025 where things like infrastructure should already see improvements.

All of the commercial real estate being built along in the festival community is what you'll find walkable eventually.

Even looking at current amenities:
Walmart right across the street
Ikea right to the side
Costco - 4 minute bus ride followed by a 10 minute walk
Cineplex 4 minute bus ride followed by a 5 minute walk
CT/Fortinos/Toysrus - 6 minute bus ride followed by a 3-4 minute walk

You've got almost any restaurant you can think of in one of the areas mentioned above:
Moxies, Scaddabush, Shoeless Joes, Tapanyaki/Hibachi, St Louis, Earls, any kind of fast food chain you can think of, various mexican tex mex, and a bunch more that I can keep listing. And thats just today, before festival and everything it brings along.
The issue here is the cost of transit. In the city of Toronto, you can just buy a monthly Metropass that will take you everywhere. At the VMC, your gonna need to utilize VIVA or Zum for your local travel to the grocery store.

Also, as of right now, there really is no nearby amenities other than Ikea and Walmart with the latter soon to he moved. If you need to take the bus, it doesn't count as an amenity in the neighborhood. Additionally, even after you get off from the bus, a lot of the amenties requires at least a 5 minute walk. This might not seem like a big deal, but imagine having to do this in February with groceries on hand.

I have a friend that lives at the VMC and he has told me that the parking situation is really bad. They recently started metering all of the surface parking lots that used to be free. A lot of the condo residents were using these free parking lots but now they have to find underground parking. There is a huge shortage of parking spaces right now and a lot of this is because most people still drive here. I imagine the parking situation to get even worse.

I think buyers need to understand the risks of this neighbourhood. Its easy to fantasize about the neighbouhood potential based on the master plan and the future artist renderings but buyers need to understand that this area will look nothing like that in the short term (next 5 years). At the end of the day, real estate is all about LOCATION. The location of the VMC in the overall GTA is not great.
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Mar 31, 2009
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As a Vaughan resident who is familiar with this area IMHO this is absurdly expensive for the location.
I suggest anyone who considers buying to spend few hours in the area at various times of the day.
This location sits right on top of one the busiest sections of HWY 7 with heavy and noisy 24 hours traffic of commercial vehicles.
It is also in the middle of industrial and commercial surroundings except of the existing condo towers already built. Nice view of endless stores parking lots on all sides.
$1K+ per sqft for this location ? unbelievable.
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Mar 2, 2017
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zlicht wrote: As a Vaughan resident who is familiar with this area IMHO this is absurdly expensive for the location.
I suggest anyone who considers buying to spend few hours in the area at various times of the day.
This location sits right on top of one the busiest sections of HWY 7 with heavy and noisy 24 hours traffic of commercial vehicles.
It is also in the middle of industrial and commercial surroundings except of the existing condo towers already built. Nice view of endless stores parking lots on all sides.
$1K+ per sqft for this location ? unbelievable.
...yea but you can enjoy scenic family walks to all walkable amenities as commercial trucks are going 80km/h within a few feet of you!
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Didn't you watch the master plan video for Vaughan? They're going to build 10 lane streets and there will be almost no traffic.
zlicht wrote: As a Vaughan resident who is familiar with this area IMHO this is absurdly expensive for the location.
I suggest anyone who considers buying to spend few hours in the area at various times of the day.
This location sits right on top of one the busiest sections of HWY 7 with heavy and noisy 24 hours traffic of commercial vehicles.
It is also in the middle of industrial and commercial surroundings except of the existing condo towers already built. Nice view of endless stores parking lots on all sides.
$1K+ per sqft for this location ? unbelievable.

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