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Getting a programming/software developer job without a computer science degree.

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Sep 13, 2011
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Getting a programming/software developer job without a computer science degree.

Is this likely with only a computer science minor and internship experience as a programmer? How important is having a CS degree to getting an entry-level job as a programmer/software developer? Is it like engineering, where if you do not have a degree, your chances of ever getting an engineering job are slim to none even if you are Albert Einstein? For programming jobs, does experience matter more than the degree?
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Jul 13, 2009
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Depends on your degree and experience... if you've got no degree, no experience, and no connections, you're obviously going to have an very difficult time finding a job.

Presumably, in the absence of a degree, you have some other experience, as you're not going to become a useful programmer by reading a book, you'll have to actually write some code at some point.


I got an entry-level software dev job with a math degree and minimal related work experience.
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Zelig wrote: Depends on your degree and experience... if you've got no degree, no experience, and no connections, you're obviously going to have an very difficult time finding a job.
Well, my degrees of study are not at all relevant to CS as much as a math degree would be, but we do a lot of programming. In fact, by graduation most people in my program are completely comfortable coding in many languages such as Python, Mathematica, and C++.


Zelig wrote: I got an entry-level software dev job with a math degree and minimal related work experience.

Do most of your colleagues also have a similar background (non-CS degree with minimal related work experience) or do they mostly have CS degrees?
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Oscillator wrote: Do most of your colleagues also have a similar background (non-CS degree with minimal related work experience) or do they mostly have CS degrees?

This job was in a small unit of a larger organization, and I was the only programmer there, so can't really compare to my colleagues.


Keep in mind most software dev jobs you're going to have at least one technical interview, so you need to know your stuff in any case.
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Software development is one of the few areas where I have seen large range in candidate education levels. Everything from zero formal education to Phd.

Programming is a creative talent that can be sharpened with school and experience. However, you cannot "teach" someone to be a good programmer. The number of your average replaceable code-monkeys is staggering. Good programmers are in short supply and high demand and typically command a good salary. Your work and portfolio will speak for itself.
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The problem a typical grad, with or without a CS degree, will face in the field is getting their resume noticed amidst the hundreds of other resumes on the pile.

Its a field in which there is a giant glut of people. Most of the battle is actually getting your resume picked out of the pile (which, when you're dealing with hundreds of resumes, can be pretty much a function in random-ness).
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Mark77 wrote: The problem a typical...
If you are typical, you will have problems standing out. If you are typical, probably best to stay away.

If you are good... you will be fine.
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My company won't hire software devs without a CS degree simply because there are so many software developers out there that we can afford to be very picky. When many people with bachelors in comp-sci can't find work, what makes you think you stand a chance without a degree?
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Knitecrow wrote: Good programmers are in short supply and high demand and typically command a good salary. Your work and portfolio will speak for itself.
In my experience it's not how good you are as a programmer, it's your soft skills, and how good you are at selling yourself, that determines how good a job you get and how fast and far you climb up the corporate ladder. Someone with average programming skills, but high emotional intelligence, will usually do better than someone who is a genius at programming but is socially awkward and has low emotional intelligence.
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Mark77 wrote: The problem a typical grad, with or without a CS degree, will face in the field is getting their resume noticed amidst the hundreds of other resumes on the pile.

Its a field in which there is a giant glut of people. Most of the battle is actually getting your resume picked out of the pile (which, when you're dealing with hundreds of resumes, can be pretty much a function in random-ness).

In that case, aren't there certain algorithms in place used by HR that would screen out all applicants that do not have "CS degree" on their resume?
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Knitecrow wrote: If you are typical, you will have problems standing out. If you are typical, probably best to stay away.
If you are good... you will be fine.

Actually with that many resumes on the pile, one can be above-average, or even a superstar -- and not have their resume drawn. With hundreds, sometimes thousands of resumes per position received -- it is extremely unlikely that a firm will actually do anything but take a sample of the resumes for human review, interviewing, etc.

So, in CS or programming, I definitely would disagree with your characterization of the marketplace. It is so saturated at this point that its not uncommon for top talent to spend years sending out applications before they receive a bite or two.
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Oscillator wrote: In that case, aren't there certain algorithms in place used by HR that would screen out all applicants that do not have "CS degree" on their resume?

Sure, but that may or may not be appropriate. CS degrees take many different forms. Someone might have a CompE degree, or a Math/Physics degree, and have the same level of programming competence as someone with a pure "CS" degree.

And even then, people with CS degrees are a dime a dozen, so such a screening criteria is of limited value. GPA is another that some firms like to screen for, but GPA can be heavily influenced by things such as class load, difficulty of classes/program taken, etc.
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Dilton wrote: My company won't hire software devs without a CS degree simply because there are so many software developers out there that we can afford to be very picky. When many people with bachelors in comp-sci can't find work, what makes you think you stand a chance without a degree?

Interesting, because I've met a few non-CS scientists (through my school) who work for top companies as software engineers, and they have told me that the software industry is like the music industry. if you can code well and have a degree in a related field (Math, for example), then you will get the job just like in the music industry. You don't need a music degree to show you have the required talent, do you?

But, nevertheless, it is interesting to hear other people's experiences in the industry and the reason why I posted this thread in the first place to get a better, unbiased picture of what exactly is going on.
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Dilton wrote: In my experience it's not how good you are as a programmer, it's your soft skills, and how good you are at selling yourself, that determines how good a job you get and how fast and far you climb up the corporate ladder. Someone with average programming skills, but high emotional intelligence, will usually do better than someone who is a genius at programming but is socially awkward and has low emotional intelligence.

Soft skills or "emotional intelligence" can easily be acquired with enough work or professional help, while analytical intelligence is something you either have or you don't.
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Dilton wrote: In my experience it's not how good you are as a programmer, it's your soft skills, and how good you are at selling yourself, that determines how good a job you get and how fast and far you climb up the corporate ladder. Someone with average programming skills, but high emotional intelligence, will usually do better than someone who is a genius at programming but is socially awkward and has low emotional intelligence.

I haven't seen this. My view of the market has been that people with low social skills prefer to hire the same, and vice versa. If anything, business would prefer people with poorer skills because this means that they probably will stick with an employment relationship longer, will ask for fewer raises, etc. I've been in a few interviews where basically, because I have great social and communications skills (relatively speaking...), that the interviewers -- basically middle managers, felt threatened.

Especially in some industries like game development -- the employers want guys who basically have no outside interests (other than gaming). They want guys who can spend 80 hours per week at the office. They want guys who will be very happy on $60k/year. They don't want guys who are looking to climb a ladder, make a ton of money, have a wife and kids (that will certainly cut down into their ability to spend 12 hour days at the office!).

The H-1B visa program in the United States, with heavy hiring of Indian nationals, is the perfect epitome of this. H-1B's tend to be single young men, with relatively poor English language skills. The H-1B's can put those 80-hour weeks in without complaint, without asking for a lot of overtime. The employers don't have to worry that they're going to leave for another employer in the middle of a project because the work visa is held by the employer (and cancelling the visa means deportation).
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Oscillator wrote: Soft skills or "emotional intelligence" can easily be acquired with enough work or professional help, while analytical intelligence is something you either have or you don't.

Sure, but the suggestion that employers are always looking for 'soft skills' or 'emotional intelligence', is, at least in my view, false. Plenty of employers, especially for these occupations, want guys who, for lack of better words, can be bullied into working cheap. Its easier to marginalize an engineer who gets things done, but doesn't have soft skills or 'emotional intelligence' into taking a lower pay package -- than it is to do the same for an engineer who is more socially adept.
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Oscillator wrote: Interesting, because I've met a few non-CS scientists (through my school) who work for top companies as software engineers, and they have told me that the software industry is like the music industry. if you can code well and have a degree in a related field (Math, for example), then you will get the job just like in the music industry.
I suppose, if you already have a contact at the company who can get you an interview, and you can convince the hiring manager you're a good programmer, you're in. But if you apply through their HR dept the way most people have to, there is no way your resume is getting past HR when they have many other resumes with degrees. I guess if you have extensive experience in some rare highly-sought skill, they might make an exception.
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Mark77 wrote: Sure, but that may or may not be appropriate. CS degrees take many different forms. Someone might have a CompE degree, or a Math/Physics degree, and have the same level of programming competence as someone with a pure "CS" degree.

I don't if that's a valid reason to not put in algorithms to screen out applicants without a CS degree. The same reasoning can be applied to engineering jobs, with which the minimum requirement is an engineering degree and HR uses these algorithms to screen out anyone that does not meet that requirement of possessing an engineering degree. Despite this, I'm sure a chemistry student with tons of electives in thermo, mass transfer, and process control would be as competent as a ChemE, but yet the former wouldn't even make it past the first screening.
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Mark77 wrote: I haven't seen this. My view of the market has been that people with low social skills prefer to hire the same, and vice versa. If anything, business would prefer people with poorer skills because this means that they probably will stick with an employment relationship longer, will ask for fewer raises, etc. I've been in a few interviews where basically, because I have great social and communications skills (relatively speaking...), that the interviewers -- basically middle managers, felt threatened.

Especially in some industries like game development -- the employers want guys who basically have no outside interests (other than gaming). They want guys who can spend 80 hours per week at the office. They want guys who will be very happy on $60k/year. They don't want guys who are looking to climb a ladder, make a ton of money, have a wife and kids (that will certainly cut down into their ability to spend 12 hour days at the office!).

The H-1B visa program in the United States, with heavy hiring of Indian nationals, is the perfect epitome of this. H-1B's tend to be single young men, with relatively poor English language skills. The H-1B's can put those 80-hour weeks in without complaint, without asking for a lot of overtime. The employers don't have to worry that they're going to leave for another employer in the middle of a project because the work visa is held by the employer (and cancelling the visa means deportation).
Your claim that some employers prefer employees with low social skills because they are easier to manipulate and take advantage of may be true... But I was talking about career growth. Look at senior managers and CEOs at large corporations, they all have high emotional intelligence (an exception might be a CEO of a small company who got his position by founding the company, not by progressing up the ranks). If you have low emotional intelligence, you might find a job, but you are much less likely to progress very far up the corporate ladder regardless of how good you are at your job.
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Dilton wrote: I suppose, if you already have a contact at the company who can get you an interview, and you can convince the hiring manager you're a good programmer, you're in. But if you apply through their HR dept the way most people have to, there is no way your resume is getting past HR when they have many other resumes with degrees. I guess if you have extensive experience in some rare highly-sought skill, they might make an exception.

There's lots of jobs in computers for which a degree probably makes a person 'too expensive'. For instance, someone with a CS degree probably wouldn't have their resume considered for a Tier1 help desk position. But if one knows how to program, and takes that Tier1 help desk position, they may very well be able to get into, with time, a programming position far before an average CS grad who applies directly, can.

I think the fallacy that persists is that employers will take overqualified people, and let them work in the 'lesser' jobs until something better opens up. When usually employers will, in actual practice, shun the overqualified as potential retention/compensation 'problems'.
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