Heat pump experience

tofubb wrote: ↑ We are thinking of switch to heat pump completely. However, the technician is strongly recommend us to keep our existing gas boiler. He said he got complains from his customers about heating.
His customers said their houses were heat up slowly, very slow.
He also said it will be minimum heat in bathroom, unless we install an electrical heater in every bathroom. And our bill will be 4-5x higher.
Our house is a 30years old 2200sq ft 3 levers Vancouver special. We are paying $1300/year for heat and hot water.
For the one who is using heat pump with no backup system for heating. Can you kindly share your experience? Comfortable? How much is your bill?

Shaner wrote: ↑ I'm paying $800 per month for heat right now, so count yourself lucky.

westcoastyvr wrote: ↑ Most insurance companies require a second heat source if you have heat pumps.
And the tech is correct, any room not in direct line of the heat pump will be cold in the winter months.
Honestly, keep the gas. $1200 is not expensive (i.e., $100/month).

thriftshopper wrote: ↑ So you have water-circulation radiant heating currently? Only thing I can think of, if it exists, is a heat pump water heater/boiler.

Ductless/mini-split HP works for small spaces unless you already have ducting for central. I have a central HP and the only backup is electric resistance which is required for defrost. The newer mostly Japanese HPs apparently don't need that.

tofubb wrote: ↑ Do you remember how much did you pay before? What system did you use? Are you in GTA or GVR? Thanks.

Skipper wrote: ↑There is another thread on this, but basically
- Consider swapping for an electric boiler for backup (perhaps allowing you to be eligible for fossil fuel removal rebate)
- Don't oversize/over-spec your mini-splits
- Get multiple quotes. $34k sounds (?) expensive. In Mtl, $4k per head for a Japanese CCHP is a ballpark.

Mini-splits can be warm enough in much colder climates than Vancouver, but as noted earlier, consider air flow.

Shaner wrote: ↑ Not in the GTA or GVR.
I use propane to heat my house.
Just saying, you're only spending $100 per month to heat your house. I wouldn't expect anything you do to ever pay for itself.
On top of that, a heat pump isn't effective when the temperature drops below a certain level. So depending on the weather where you are, a heat pump as a stand alone system might not be ideal.

Why are you wanting to switch?

thriftshopper wrote: ↑ Any decent mini-split will work well to -10C. Many new houses over the water don't even have central heating anymore, just mini-splits.

And you're upgrading the panel amperage capacity, not voltage. Kind of surprised it wasn't 200A already.

tmkf_patryk wrote: ↑ Well, your clearly not an electrician.
I think your confused. He needs to run 2 hots (240v) as opposed to 120v

There is no way an upgrade to a heating will make you jump from 100amp panel to a 200 amp

tofubb wrote: ↑ We are thinking of switch to heat pump completely. However, the technician is strongly recommend us to keep our existing gas boiler. He said he got complains from his customers about heating.
His customers said their houses were heat up slowly, very slow.
He also said it will be minimum heat in bathroom, unless we install an electrical heater in every bathroom. And our bill will be 4-5x higher.
Our house is a 30years old 2200sq ft 3 levers Vancouver special. We are paying $1300/year for heat and hot water.
For the one who is using heat pump with no backup system for heating. Can you kindly share your experience? Comfortable? How much is your bill?

tofubb wrote: ↑ If A/C only, we only need four heads. If cooling + heating, we need seven heads plus upgrade our breaker from 125V to 240V. So it comes to $34K



I want A/C, but my house is not compatible with central A/C, so HP will be a good option.
I am in Van, generally not that cold, but still goes below -10’C for few weeks a year.
I know electricity costs more, but don’t know how much more. If 2x more, may still worth it. But not 4x more, can’t afford it.

thriftshopper wrote: ↑ UP'd to 240V is no different than running a pair of heavy gauge wiring and appropriate circuit breakers to the compressor and perhaps head units. If the cost is that much to do such, clearly something is already lacking, such as space on the panel for more full tandem breakers.



Well, how much do you really know yourself? My central HP has 240V @ 50A to the compressor and 240V @ 40A to the air handler (mainly for the heat strips, motor itself doesn't draw that much). Challenge you to run that on a 100A panel.

tmkf_patryk wrote: ↑ Going from 120 to 240 your doubling the volts therefore doubling the watts. The heavy gauge cables just are there for transferring power, but if your at 120 on one ends, it won’t magically appear to 240 on the other

The OP also says his house is not for central HP so why bring up a useless point.

And there is no problem running your 90 amps on a 100 amp sub panel. Challenge me to put 90 amps on 100? You sound like a fool. Cause 90 is less than 100. And you need to know that they don’t actually run at that high of an amperage either.

Your also the useless poster who can’t open his own clean out, geezzzzz

thriftshopper wrote: ↑ Right, so he needs 240V which is 3 wire (+ ground) and gauged for such. I suspect he's running out of amperage (and panel box) capacity more than voltage.

OP wants minisplits for the a/c function, which is why he probably needs a new panel. Radiant heating ain't going to do anything.

The OP may have a panel that is amperage or circuit breaker capacity-limited. Kinda of surprised that he might have a 100A panel in a '90s house but anything is possible. Just had a look at Carrier head units and they are 240V so each needs a pair of full breakers. So 4-7 pairs for the head units (depending on whether he wants just a/c or heat too) + 1 pr for the compressor. No slim (tandem?) breakers allowed!

Actually just did 2+ weeks ago in the house (do have a massive and heavy adjustable wrench). Just want a lightweight and rust-proof one I can leave in the RV wet compartment.

opendoor wrote: ↑ I have a similar sized house in Vancouver (but 40 years old) and heat solely heat pumps. With 2x4 walls and almost entirely original (i.e. 40 year old) windows and doors, I spend about $500-550 a year for heat. I don't know exactly what my hot water costs (I don't have an energy monitor on that circuit like I do the heat pump), but I don't think my entire electricity bill for the year is even $1,300 including both heat and hot water (and everything else). I do have baseboard heaters for backup, but I've literally never turned them on once since getting the heat pump. They're just there in case of equipment failure at this point.

All that said, I have two ducted mini splits (one for each floor). If you're talking about ductless, then some of what your technician said is correct. They don't distribute heat all that well between rooms and most heads are too big to heat smaller spaces (like bedrooms) all that well. They can work, but keep that in mind.

In general though, I'd take what HVAC technicians say with a grain of salt when it comes to this kind of thing. Their area of expertise is primarily installing, maintaining, and repairing HVAC systems, and most aren't all that adept at proper system design. For instance, I'm not even sure what "heating up slowly" would even mean in regards to a heat pump. They work best and most efficiently if you always keep them at (or within a degree or two) your target room temperature, so there's no situation where they have to raise the temperature to any real degree.

There's a reason that larger projects have HVAC designers, and that's because technicians and installers aren't really trained to do that, beyond using basic rules of thumb. I had a friend who's an HVAC/R Tech do the install for my units, and just based on a bit of reading and research on my part, I ended up knowing more about the system and how to most effectively size and lay out everything than he did. And that's fair, as it's not really a big part of his job. His job is more installing the units, making sure the refrigerant levels are correct, the electronics are working properly, the control boards and relays are functioning, etc.

That said, it really comes down to cost/benefit. In terms of heating, you'll never get your money back compared to what you're spending now. If you absolutely need cooling, then you have to weigh the final cost after rebates for the two options and see if it's worth it to use them for heating as well. For me, I was paying over $2K a year for electric baseboard heating and I really did need A/C upstairs, so since I was doing a bit reno anyway it made perfect sense. For you, the math is pretty different.

clboy wrote: ↑What was mentioned by the HVAC contractor is correct in that in a forced air setup, the heatpump's "heat" is just warm and will get you to your final temperature eventually, but when the furnace kicks in you get a blast of hot air. (my home is drafty considering it is aluminum double glazed windows and some of those windows are leaky)