Green / Eco-Friendly

High Efficiency Condensing Gas Storage Tank Water Heaters

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  • Dec 20th, 2019 8:14 am
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Sr. Member
Aug 25, 2005
823 posts
79 upvotes
john_ertw wrote: Have you installed one? If so how is your experience?

I have done some reading and am turned off on the technology. Gas savings will be minimal (I used my summer gas bills when I only use gas for water heating and my BBQ) and even if those are cut in half it will not be noticable. I also didn't like the allowable temperature rise they provide (especially with the cold water intake in the winter) and the increased maintenance.
Yes, I installed one almost a year ago. The unit has been working great but I installed it primarly for space savings and constant hot water. In terms of temperature rise -- I have NEVER had a problem getting enough hot water from the unit. Even with the dishwasher, washing machine and 2 showers all going at the same time -- on the coldest day of the year.

If you don't find a good price on the unit, it will be a very long ROI to recover the cost of the unit. But with rebates and sourcing them direct, there is an opportunity to recover your costs.

If I didn't require the space and my water tank was working well (and already paid for), I'd see no reason to swap out.
[OP]
Member
Jan 12, 2009
319 posts
14 upvotes
redac wrote: Yes, I installed one almost a year ago. The unit has been working great but I installed it primarly for space savings and constant hot water. In terms of temperature rise -- I have NEVER had a problem getting enough hot water from the unit. Even with the dishwasher, washing machine and 2 showers all going at the same time -- on the coldest day of the year.
Thanks for the feedback. I was actually very close to having a Rinanni (sp?) installed last year until I came across a chart of temperature rise vs flow rate and looked into the incoming cold water temperature. It appeared that I wuold not be able to accomplish the feat of running appliances along with 1 shower, never mind 2. Based on this and the long ROI I decided to drop it. Perhaps I will reconsider.
Sr. Member
Aug 25, 2005
823 posts
79 upvotes
john_ertw wrote: Thanks for the feedback. I was actually very close to having a Rinanni (sp?) installed last year until I came across a chart of temperature rise vs flow rate and looked into the incoming cold water temperature. It appeared that I wuold not be able to accomplish the feat of running appliances along with 1 shower, never mind 2. Based on this and the long ROI I decided to drop it. Perhaps I will reconsider.
I would suggest asking others who have installed the units. I went with the Rinnai over other more efficient units because they seem to have a fantastic record for reliability. I also did a lot of analysis on the flow charts but I think that the numbers 'in theory' differ from what you actually see in practice. Some of it may have to do with the water not actually being as cold as you expect and also the flow used may not be as high as you would expect. At first, I was a little hesitant w/ going with the R75LSi (was really leaning towards the R94LSI because of the 'charted' numbers) but the R75Lsi works GREAT.

I also think that if you are in a newer home, chances are that there are water saving shower heads which will greatly affect the flow requirements.

If I had the opportuinity to do it again, I wouldn't hesitate to use the Rinnai.
Newbie
Dec 26, 2009
18 posts
john_ertw wrote: Sorry for the late reply as I forgot about this thread. I still haven't changed my tank, but I am planning to replace my tank with another conventional tank (vent out the chiminey). It seems that condensing tanks and tankless water heaters are too expensive and in my opinion the savings would never pay back the additional cost. Direct vent and power vented tanks are not more efficient than conventional so I don't see a strong argument to go that route especially since the installation costs would be much higher.


i'm curious about how much you are paying for a conventional vented tank after installation. also wondering what you were quoted for the direct vent option.
[OP]
Member
Jan 12, 2009
319 posts
14 upvotes
anil_cbr wrote: i'm curious about how much you are paying for a conventional vented tank after installation. also wondering what you were quoted for the direct vent option.
It's not that straight forward as a friend is a licensed gas fitter. He will help me replace the tank with a conventional tank so my only cost would be the tank (look up prices at home depot). If I want to go with a direct vent I'll have to hire someone which will add significantly to the cost.
Sr. Member
Aug 25, 2005
823 posts
79 upvotes
anil_cbr wrote: if a tankless is a cheaper option it might be better to go that route. anyone have information on a Bradford white m-ii-tw-75t6bn.
I cant find the efficiency of the tank. The customer wanted a tankless but if his current tank is a condensing unit, I don't see the point of replacing it since he is not renting and will not see a decent return on investment. plus his tank is only 5 years old. seems too soon to replace it.

http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/lowenerg ... arison.pdf

I believe some (maybe all?) Bradford White Tankless units are made by Rinnai.

In general, the tankless units usually cost more. And some require special venting (i.e. stainless steel) while conventional tanks use cheaper ABS (or schedule 40).
Sr. Member
User avatar
Dec 31, 2005
977 posts
497 upvotes
Waterloo
A few people were posting about tankless. There was a long thread in the Hot Deals section last summer (probably in expired now) that has a lot of very good information.

A few things of interest given some of the posts:

1) there are tankless water heaters that do no require the stainless steel venting and therefore can be installed much further from an outside wall - Navien is one but not the only one

2) don't cheap out when looking at tankless, pay a few more $$ and get the right size or slightly oversized by paying close attention to the temperature rise required in the winter (source water in southern Ontario is ~40F) and the number of GPM - the last thing anyone would want is an undersized tankless heater

I installed a Navien (CR-240A) last May and have been quite happy with it. Would highly recommend it as it has an internal recirculator and mini buffer tank to deliver hot water to the faucet faster and without the cold water sandwich effect. We now enjoy endless hot water without having to pre-heat a ton.

Got $375 in rebates from each of the gov'ts and $100 from the local utility.
Newbie
Aug 12, 2011
1 posts
bfoster wrote: I am wondering the same...Has anyone installed a high efficiency unit that qualifies for the eco-energy rebate (e.g. 94% + efficiency)? If so, who did your install and how much was it?

Here's a list that was posted by NRCAN on Nov 30th of the tanks.

http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/pers ... cfm?attr=4

I have called around a few places and not many places know about these high efficiency tanks...most just want to sell tankless.

This is at the top of the page of your link "There are currently no residential-grade condensing water heaters available in Canada, but the units listed below may be suitable for residential installations. This chart uses imperial measurements since this is the industry practice in North America." http://oee.nrcan.gc.ca/residential/pers ... cfm?attr=4
Deal Addict
User avatar
Mar 8, 2002
4232 posts
866 upvotes
Ottawa
Unless you are producing massive amounts of hot water for something like an apartment, condo, hotel, pool, health club, etc, anything with lots of showers, often the amount of energy saved with condensing technology will not pay for the price premium over a regular hot water heater. That's why there are incentives available ;)
Newbie
Aug 24, 2011
2 posts
DELTA
MacGyver wrote: Unless you are producing massive amounts of hot water for something like an apartment, condo, hotel, pool, health club, etc, anything with lots of showers, often the amount of energy saved with condensing technology will not pay for the price premium over a regular hot water heater. That's why there are incentives available ;)

Absolutely true. My current gas bill for summer months, with gas only sed for heating hot water in a 9 year old Rheem tank is <$28. Less than $9.00 is for the 1.4 GJ of gas, the rest is tax, more tax and delivery charges. Our hat water usage does not vary greatly summer to winter. Assuming a new HE water heater is twice as good as my old tank, how many years does it take to pay for an HE system versus replacing my old low efficiency unit? Saving <$5 per month or $60 per year, the difference in cost is over $1500 or some 25 years (at current gas prices) Even if they double, very unlikely it would ever pay for itself.
Sr. Member
Aug 1, 2006
955 posts
63 upvotes
Stranger wrote: A few people were posting about tankless. There was a long thread in the Hot Deals section last summer (probably in expired now) that has a lot of very good information.

A few things of interest given some of the posts:

1) there are tankless water heaters that do no require the stainless steel venting and therefore can be installed much further from an outside wall - Navien is one but not the only one

2) don't cheap out when looking at tankless, pay a few more $$ and get the right size or slightly oversized by paying close attention to the temperature rise required in the winter (source water in southern Ontario is ~40F) and the number of GPM - the last thing anyone would want is an undersized tankless heater

I installed a Navien (CR-240A) last May and have been quite happy with it. Would highly recommend it as it has an internal recirculator and mini buffer tank to deliver hot water to the faucet faster and without the cold water sandwich effect. We now enjoy endless hot water without having to pre-heat a ton.

Got $375 in rebates from each of the gov'ts and $100 from the local utility.
Hi, if you don't mind me asking - what is the procedure for getting those $375 + $100 rebates? Do you have to book/pay for an ecoEnergy audit first (2 inspections and which one costing money - thus canceling the effect of those rebates)?
Thank you.
Newbie
Dec 28, 2017
7 posts
John, High efficiently water heaters can reduce your gas utility costs. You just have pick the right product. Sometimes high efficiency comes at a high price if it means more maintenance costs. And if you you don't keep up the regiment, you fancy, expensive water heater is suddenly only scape metal. There is emerging technology that has improved the reliability and the life cycle of ultra high-efficiency products. You just have to pick the right one. In this competitive business of coin laundries, owners have to hedge against rising costs.

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