Careers

How to find talented developers?

  • Last Updated:
  • Mar 24th, 2019 11:33 pm
Tags:
Deal Addict
Nov 30, 2006
2385 posts
274 upvotes

How to find talented developers?

Hi,

I'm just posting this here because it seems my company is having a very hard time finding developers/engineers.

While I work with engineers and developers in a Software Development capacity I am not one by trade. I am on the management level but am wondering if our HR teams are doing something wrong or if we're being too harsh during the screening.

We have a need for 10-12 developers but have found no good candidates as of yet.

Just curious to hear if anyone has any good strategies or even if you know anyone who needs a job (we'd love to see if they pan out).

Thanks,
16 replies
Jr. Member
Jan 13, 2017
113 posts
33 upvotes
Might be budget related problems?

The company I work for hired a lot of developers in the past couple of years. If we need a good developer, the company i work for is willing to offer any salary range to them. Good/skilled developers don't want to get paid less.
Deal Addict
Nov 30, 2006
2385 posts
274 upvotes
Shark828 wrote: Might be budget related problems?

The company I work for hired a lot of developers in the past couple of years. If we need a good developer, the company i work for is willing to offer any salary range to them. Good/skilled developers don't want to get paid less.
We actually pay above market. I know for my role, I'm being paid well above what my peers in the industry are making. And I think if the salary was the barrier, I believe we would have self-corrected that by now. Agree that good developers are worth what they request.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Jan 31, 2006
8541 posts
2655 upvotes
Toronto
Good developer/Engineer is not always determine by HR screening or interviews, you might need to be patient and training them to be a good one. If you need to delivered a project on time, then you need outsourcing, do not expect that you hire a developer or a bunch of developers today and get your deliverable done on time. I have experience seeing my company struggle with new hire and eventually fired them after they fail to meet the company expectation.
Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
21738 posts
21353 upvotes
Tarrana & The Ri…
OP, we're having the same trouble. But what skills are you looking for specifically?
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Dec 3, 2009
6029 posts
1391 upvotes
Toronto
I consider in order:

1. I always assume HR doesn't know the role they are screening for very well and usually, that's the case when roles don't get filled for months on end.

2. Those talented developers with the skills you're looking for don't exist in the local market.

3. The market rate that you say your company is offering "above market" and it's for something very niche, might actually be well below market and your company has bad data.
Remember to be an RFD-er and NOT a degenerate.
Member
Oct 6, 2017
407 posts
453 upvotes
Location? What skills are you looking for?
Deal Addict
Nov 30, 2006
2385 posts
274 upvotes
I'll post what we're roughly looking for. It's an Enterprise SaaS company. One of the larger ones in Toronto. I'm completely open to suggestions but love to help people find jobs and conversely allow them to assist our business on some Software Development projects.

Technical Competencies

Expertise developing large-scale web and mobile applications, with technologies like C#, SQL, Javascript (ReactJS, Redux, Kendo, JQuery)
Solid understanding of user interface and user experience principles
Solid understanding of relational database technology covering design, queries, transactions, stored procedures, triggers, constrains and optimization.
Solid understanding of object-oriented programming concepts and design patterns

Experience

Three or more years of professional web or mobile applications development experience strongly preferred for intermediate developer roles
Seven or more years preferred for senior developer roles
Professional experience within an agile development practice strongly preferred
Professional experience within a software product or SaaS organization preferred
Deal Addict
Oct 6, 2015
2463 posts
1401 upvotes
1) Ditch the 'experience' requirements. They're arbitrary and really don't tell you anything. Worse, they project your company as being one run by HR types, and not by engineers. A good developer with little experience can often run circles around someone who has 10 years of 'experience'.

2) Good Programmers and UI/UX designers are generally mutually exclusive. So if you're asking for someone to occupy both roles, that says that you either are a very small business, or alternatively, you really don't know what you're looking for, so you just put "the kitchen sink" on there. Both reflect poorly on your business.

3) You gotta put something on there that you take compensation of the role seriously. You're probably not a Google, Facebook, or Amazon where its well accepted that the compensation will be in the upper quartile.

4) All applicants should have an interaction with one of your engineers, and your engineers should be front and center in the hiring process as the decision makers. Everyone hates the lame, "I gotta go talk to my manager" trick that's more synonymous with car dealerships -- it shows that your organization doesn't empower your people, and is plain unprofessional. If you're relying upon someone in HR to manage all of this, and communicate with applicants, especially ones that may be perceived as being partially qualified, that's a big problem. It doesn't mean that you have to have an engineer talk to an unemployed Alberta oil rig worker who spams resumes (unless he has a CS degree), but it does mean that everyone who has a CS degree and applies should have an interaction with one of your engineers.

5) Coding interviews, completely unprofessional mostly, but if you absolutely have to do a coding interview, its only reasonable that you provide interviewees with some sort of compensation, even if unsuccessful. A $500 gift card to a nice restaurant down on King Street would be my suggestion, or Amazon gift cards... The last thing you want is to get a bad reputation.. You want your Glassdoor interview reviews to be glowing, even from rejectees. Let them know up-front that there will be a reward for participating in the process, as you value the time of the applicant.

6) How do 'experienced developers' become into existence? By unexperienced developers getting jobs. So at least some of your hiring should be at the true entry level. Your company is just as responsible for doing this as everyone else. Its not realistic, professional, nor sustainable to just scalp people from other employers.
Last edited by burnt69 on Mar 24th, 2019 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Banned
User avatar
Nov 22, 2018
91 posts
137 upvotes
burnt69 wrote: 1) Ditch the 'experience' requirements. They're arbitrary and really don't tell you anything. Worse, they project your company as being one run by HR types, and not by engineers. A good developer with little experience can often run circles around someone who has 10 years of 'experience'.

2) Good Programmers and UI/UX designers are generally mutually exclusive. So if you're asking for someone to occupy both roles, that says that you either are a very small business, or alternatively, you really don't know what you're looking for, so you just put "the kitchen sink" on there. Both reflect poorly on your business.

3) You gotta put something on there that you take compensation of the role seriously. You're probably not a Google, Facebook, or Amazon where its well accepted that the compensation will be in the upper quartile.

4) All applicants should have an interaction with one of your engineers, and your engineers should be front and center in the hiring process as the decision makers. Everyone hates the lame, "I gotta go talk to my manager" trick that's more synonymous with car dealerships -- it shows that your organization doesn't empower your people, and is plain unprofessional. If you're relying upon someone in HR to manage all of this, and communicate with applicants, especially ones that may be perceived as being partially qualified, that's a big problem. It doesn't mean that you have to have an engineer talk to an unemployed Alberta oil rig worker who spams resumes (unless he has a CS degree), but it does mean that everyone who has a CS degree and applies should have an interaction with one of your engineers.

5) Coding interviews, completely unprofessional mostly, but if you absolutely have to do a coding interview, its only reasonable that you provide interviewees with some sort of compensation, even if unsuccessful. A $500 gift card to a nice restaurant down on King Street would be my suggestion, or Amazon gift cards... The last thing you want is to get a bad reputation.. You want your Glassdoor interview reviews to be glowing, even from rejectees. Let them know up-front that there will be a reward for participating in the process, as you value the time of the applicant.
1. This only applies if you're a small company. If you're a large enterprise, it's good to have experience requirements to help position people into particular band levels. And plus, the YOE requirements aren't hard requirements ever. People need some experience definitions to get an idea of what the company is looking for.
2. True but every developer should have an idea of what a good user experience is. But the actual defining of what the exact UI should look like and what visual theme it should have, should be left to dedicated UX designers. Most enterprises already do this, from my experience.
3. Yup, money speaks. It's a competitive market for software developers, you gotta pay good money to attract talent.
5. I wouldn't do the compensation thing. It's tacky and I've never experienced it ever as a software developer. It's OK to pay for people's travel expenses to come to the interview and possibly take them out for lunch as part of judging their behavior, but no gift cards or money being exchanged. A better idea might be a goodies basket with company branded swag (shirt, water bottle, pens, etc.).
Deal Addict
Oct 6, 2015
2463 posts
1401 upvotes
DietCokeSquad wrote: 1. This only applies if you're a small company. If you're a large enterprise, it's good to have experience requirements to help position people into particular band levels. And plus, the YOE requirements aren't hard requirements ever. People need some experience definitions to get an idea of what the company is looking fr.
Actually it applies in big companies just as much as it applies in small. Good developers do not want to be pigeonholed into rigid HR salary bands which force them on a very low salary because their skillsets actually exceed their 'years of experience'. Especially top talent. That's a recipe for mediocrity.
5. I wouldn't do the compensation thing. It's tacky and I've never experienced it ever as a software developer.
Its not tacky at all. If someone takes a day off to come to an interview, that's a huge investment of their time. A token of appreciation for such is a very basic professional courtesy. I stand by my comment that a $500 high end restaurant gift card is probably "in the ballpark" as to what should be offered to a local candidate who takes a day off for an interview.
It's OK to pay for people's travel expenses to come to the interview and possibly take them out for lunch as part of judging their behavior, but no gift cards or money being exchanged. A better idea might be a goodies basket with company branded swag (shirt, water bottle, pens, etc.).
Goodies basket? Good lord, that's cheap.... Big turn-off right there if they value a day of an interviewees time with $20 worth of corporate "swag".
Banned
User avatar
Nov 22, 2018
91 posts
137 upvotes
burnt69 wrote: Actually it applies in big companies just as much as it applies in small. Good developers do not want to be pigeonholed into rigid HR salary bands which force them on a very low salary because their skillsets actually exceed their 'years of experience'. Especially top talent. That's a recipe for mediocrity.
There's a reason why every employer, including every tech giant, has these requirements in their postings. That includes Amazon, big banks, consulting firms, and defense contractors.

You're thinking of an imaginary utopia where there are no requirements listed out and where companies pay you to interview. It isn't realistic and it isn't appropriate.

As for developers exceeding the listed "years of experience", that's what salary negotiations and sign-ups bonuses are for.
Its not tacky at all. If someone takes a day off to come to an interview, that's a huge investment of their time. A token of appreciation for such is a very basic professional courtesy. I stand by my comment that a $500 high end restaurant gift card is probably "in the ballpark" as to what should be offered to a local candidate who takes a day off for an interview.
There's a reason why no one offers $500 gift cards for showing up to interviews. It's not professional.
Goodies basket? Good lord, that's cheap.... Big turn-off right there if they value a day of an interviewees time with $20 worth of corporate "swag".
I got one of those at a SV internship interview (one of the FAANG giants) and at a full-time Two Sigma interview in NYC. It's more respectful (and memorable) than handing someone a gift card or cash.

My advice to OP is simply highlight the benefits your enterprise has (flexible working schedule, remote work, competitive salary and variable compensation, volunteering opportunities, catered lunch on Fridays, or whatever it is) in your posting. At the end of the day, it's a very competitive market and people can see what past employees have written on Glassdoor and what the average compensation is. If that number is low, that's gonna cause a lot of people to not even bother applying.

Also make sure that the job posting is on numerous platforms like Glassdoor and LinkedIn.

The last thing is to consider hiring contractors/consultants. Their per-hour wage is much higher than full-timers but you don't have to pay them any health benefits and alike. You can normally hire them for the very specific skillset that you need.
Deal Addict
Oct 6, 2015
2463 posts
1401 upvotes
DietCokeSquad wrote: You're thinking of an imaginary utopia where there are no requirements listed out and where companies pay you to interview. It isn't realistic and it isn't appropriate.
No, its not utopia. Its professionalism. And I never said to get rid of requirements. I just said to leave out the stuff that implies salary bands and all that stuff. An applicant should feel that they will be placed at a compensation level in the organization that is appropriate to their skills and contributions. This is what good organizations do. Amazon, Facebook, etc., don't put that sort of stuff on their job ads, BTW.
As for developers exceeding the listed "years of experience", that's what salary negotiations and sign-ups bonuses are for.
Well leave it out. Everyone knows that. Its a waste of space and conveys a sort of environment in which HR people are deciding compensation based on arbitrary charts and 'experience'.
There's a reason why no one offers $500 gift cards for showing up to interviews. It's not professional.
Huh? Its very professional. Its not professional to waste someone's day on an interview and not give them something.
I got one of those at a SV internship interview (one of the FAANG giants) and at a full-time Two Sigma interview in NYC. It's more respectful (and memorable) than handing someone a gift card or cash.
Cash is problematic, I agree (and taxes would be owing on it!), but you were completely disrespected if that's all they gave you for taking a day or two out of your life, and potentially away from work. A smaller company that can't find people doesn't have the luxury of treating its applicants poorly. A big FAANG might have the benefit of such arrogance as they often have applicant to hire ratios of 1000:1 due to their brand name recognition. This isn't a birthday party for a 9-year-old, where a goodie bag might be the norm, this is a serious job interviewing process we're talking about here!
Deal Addict
Oct 6, 2015
2463 posts
1401 upvotes
DietCokeSquad wrote: The last thing is to consider hiring contractors/consultants. Their per-hour wage is much higher than full-timers but you don't have to pay them any health benefits and alike. You can normally hire them for the very specific skillset that you need.
Horrible advice there. Nothing says disrespect for the workforce or a role more than trying to fill it with contractors/consultants. If they're even available. Good people don't want anything to do with employers who are looking to not pay them benefits, or "per hour". Especially if the skill itself is scarce.
Last edited by burnt69 on Mar 24th, 2019 9:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Banned
User avatar
Nov 22, 2018
91 posts
137 upvotes
burnt69 wrote: No, its not utopia. Its professionalism. And I never said to get rid of requirements. I just said to leave out the stuff that implies salary bands and all that stuff. An applicant should feel that they will be placed at a compensation level in the organization that is appropriate to their skills and contributions. This is what good organizations do. Amazon, Facebook, etc., don't put that sort of stuff on their job ads, BTW.
First Amazon ad I pulled up on LinkedIn for an entry SDE position: https://www.linkedin.com/jobs/view/837074860/
2+ years professional experience in software development
Well leave it out. Everyone knows that. Its a waste of space and conveys a sort of environment in which HR people are deciding compensation based on arbitrary charts and 'experience'.
It isn't completely arbitrary. Every single enterprise organization has levels set out that define years of experience required to be in a particular band. That band isn't necessarily reflective of compensation (you can be in a lower band but have higher compensation than the median of the next band) but it gives a good idea of what the expected responsibilities are.
Huh? Its very professional. Its not professional to waste someone's day on an interview and not give them something.
Then 99% of all interviews conducted are unprofessional by your standards. The rest of job-seekers and employers don't think the same way you do. Maybe you have a very niche set of skills that few in the country have that you can have such high standards, but they're not realistic.
Horrible advice there. Nothing says disrespect for the workforce or a role more than trying to fill it with contractors/consultants. If they're even available. Good people don't want anything to do with employers who are looking to not pay them benefits, or "per hour". Especially if the skill itself is scarce.
It's not disrespect for the workforce. Many people prefer to be contractors because they can bill at much higher numbers and you can expense a bunch of things like travel, car costs, equipment, training and more. I recall when my team was trying to get consultants for jBPM, a scarce skill it appears, we were quoted $200/hour for specialists by their firm. Even if the consultant only gets half of that, that's tons of money for Toronto.

There are many contract positions that many people prefer to work for. You'll notice the phenomenon amongst developers at banks a lot: people resign as full-timers and return as contractors for the higher pay because the full-time benefits are only worth maybe $5-8k a year.
Cash is problematic, I agree, but you were completely disrespected if that's all they gave you for taking a day or two out of your life, and potentially away from work. A smaller company that can't find people doesn't have the luxury of treating its applicants poorly. A big FAANG might have the benefit of such arrogance as they often have applicant to hire ratios of 1000:1 due to their brand name recognition.
That's just the way it works. You lose a couple of hours interviewing and the employer loses a couple of hours sending their employees to conduct the interviews (along with paying for the expenses of traveling interviewees).

Actually, it's interesting. I wouldn't accuse FAANG of being arrogant. My interview loop with them was amongst the greatest experiences I had in my professional career. The phone interview was conducted on time and they gave me a good rundown of what the position entails. The flight to their campus was paid for by the employer, so was the hotel, so was transportation and I received a stipend for food expenses too. Unlike when I interviewed at my current Canadian employer, I was given a small tour of the facility to see what the work environment looks like and what facilities exist. The employees genuinely seemed happy to be there. Certainly didn't notice arrogance during my time.

Anyway, let's not poop on OP's thread any further now that we've made our opinions known.
Deal Addict
Nov 30, 2006
2385 posts
274 upvotes
Just for context, we're a rapidly growing Enterprise SaaS company with 500+ employees spread across the US, England, and Toronto. We win and have won several "Best Employer" rewards but that's all fluff to an engineer.

We're hiring about 8-20 people every month spread across every department, but for some reason, Development is one of the areas we're struggling with. It's a complex software so the Engineering and HR leads are being selective but even with that it's still an uphill battle.

If anyone knows any I'd love to bring them in lol

Top

Thread Information

There is currently 1 user viewing this thread. (0 members and 1 guest)