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HVAC Replacement Question

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  • Jun 8th, 2021 7:20 pm
[OP]
Member
Nov 7, 2015
218 posts
79 upvotes

HVAC Replacement Question

I was hoping if anybody with experience in this area could help me figure out if this is a good/fair deal. AC unit 10 years old has finally given out and I was hoping to get a full replacement. Furnace is also quite old. I received the quote attached below. Could anyone advise if it is fair and/or any recommendations for improvement? I'd greatly appreciate any input. Thank you

EDIT: House details
1200 sq ft bungalow. Main floor + basement all finished.

EDIT #2
Location = Hamilton

EDIT #3
Added Comparison Table of quotes

EDIT #4
Added Pictures of the A/C + Furnace Units model number, etc
Images
  • HVAC Quote.jpg
  • HVAC Comparison Table.jpg
  • Furnace.jpg
  • AC.jpg
Last edited by pureelite1 on Jun 8th, 2021 6:33 pm, edited 6 times in total.
43 replies
Deal Expert
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Feb 11, 2007
17211 posts
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Oakville
10 years is very short life for an AC. You might want to look into what contributed to it's early death to prevent your new one from the same fate.

That looks like a decent price for both. Make sure to look at what rebates you can get from the gov't or your energy providers. I expect the rebates to get better in the near future.
If the women don't find you handsome, they should at least find you handy.
[OP]
Member
Nov 7, 2015
218 posts
79 upvotes
engineered wrote: 10 years is very short life for an AC. You might want to look into what contributed to it's early death to prevent your new one from the same fate.

That looks like a decent price for both. Make sure to look at what rebates you can get from the gov't or your energy providers. I expect the rebates to get better in the near future.
Thank you! Glad to hear it is a decent price for both. Not entirely sure why the AC died. Got the house 5 years ago, and was installed by the previous owner 5 years prior.

Great suggestion on the rebates, will definitely check-in with the local utility provider to see if they are offering anything. Are local utilities providers the best place to check or is there somewhere else I can check for rebates?
Deal Addict
Jun 16, 2009
3028 posts
1371 upvotes
Woodbridge
The furnace is very basic with a single-speed blower. Also, make sure to ask the installer to give you the original Carrier coil instead of Aspen or ADP coil.
When people buy products like Carrier, Lennox, Trane or American Standard, they expect the evaporator coil to be from the same manufacturer. Little they know, many installers have been installing third party coils which are prone to fail due to corrosion under the disguise that copper coils are better.
I feel bad for customers who ended up getting ADP coils unknowingly. Only when I started writing here, many poor people realized . Other sellers were forced to include this information in their ads.
pureelite1 wrote: I was hoping if anybody with experience in this area could help me figure out if this is a good/fair deal. AC unit 10 years old has finally given out and I was hoping to get a full replacement. Furnace is also quite old. I received the quote attached below. Could anyone advise if it is fair and/or any recommendations for improvement? I'd greatly appreciate any input. Thank you

EDIT: House details
1200 sq ft bungalow. Main floor + basement all finished.
HVAC Professional. Committed to customer, not brand.
Furnace & Central AC Group Buy 2021
Deal Addict
User avatar
Sep 27, 2006
4045 posts
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Not so easy there Ma…
engineered wrote: 10 years is very short life for an AC. You might want to look into what contributed to it's early death to prevent your new one from the same fate.

That looks like a decent price for both. Make sure to look at what rebates you can get from the gov't or your energy providers. I expect the rebates to get better in the near future.

There have been class action lawsuits in the US over AC's that failed prematurely because of A coils that failed due to corrosion. Even the replacement coils were failing while still under warranty. The hefty labour to repair is not covered under warranty (except year one). The "freon" recharge and labour most likely isn't either. These coils and their design failures came to Canada.
pureelite1 wrote: Thank you! Glad to hear it is a decent price for both. Not entirely sure why the AC died. Got the house 5 years ago, and was installed by the previous owner 5 years prior.

Great suggestion on the rebates, will definitely check-in with the local utility provider to see if they are offering anything. Are local utilities providers the best place to check or is there somewhere else I can check for rebates?

Someone may be able offer more assistance if you provided a location.
newlyborn wrote: The furnace is very basic with a single-speed blower. Also, make sure to ask the installer to give you the original Carrier coil instead of Aspen or ADP coil.
When people buy products like Carrier, Lennox, Trane or American Standard, they expect the evaporator coil to be from the same manufacturer. Little they know, many installers have been installing third party coils which are prone to fail due to corrosion under the disguise that copper coils are better.
I feel bad for customers who ended up getting ADP coils unknowingly. Only when I started writing here, many poor people realized . Other sellers were forced to include this information in their ads.
As above, are you sure you want a single speed? The two speed runs on low most of the time, is quieter and your home would feel warmer with the low speed heat. Running on low would also distribute the heat better and would help keep the whole house feeling warmer not just the rooms closest to the furnace.
Deal Addict
Feb 10, 2006
2467 posts
452 upvotes
Kitchener
Recognize there are some variable in determining the correct size of unit but if your house is also 10yrs old that might be too large. If the home is older, with less insolation then ignore my comment.

Coil selection and single stage would be next on the list of concerns.
Tired of renting from Reliance? This might be useful reliance-home-comfort-2464779/2/#p34473179
Sr. Member
Oct 19, 2020
816 posts
497 upvotes
GTA
pureelite1 wrote: Thank you! Glad to hear it is a decent price for both. Not entirely sure why the AC died. Got the house 5 years ago, and was installed by the previous owner 5 years prior.

Great suggestion on the rebates, will definitely check-in with the local utility provider to see if they are offering anything. Are local utilities providers the best place to check or is there somewhere else I can check for rebates?
What exactly is wrong with it? Were you told?

10 year old is worth repairing including leaks* provided the compressor is still good.
*Unless it is r22.

Don't get conned into replacing something that may easily be repaired at a much lower cost.
Sr. Member
Jun 1, 2010
792 posts
224 upvotes
ADP coils are premium coils, and sold by TRANE, Carrier and Lennox. I’m sorry to hear other posters are not being honest about the truth about air conditioning and evaporator coils. We have installed 100’s of ADP coils every year for the members of this forum with very few failures. What is most important is to find a contractor that is a authorized dealer for the products it sells. There are some contractors working out of the back of their truck with no fixed address, selling products they are not authorized to sell and install. Some contractors also push a higher seer AC units for more money but since our cooling season is so shorty you will never recoup these costs in energy savings. Please only install a 13 seer AC in our climate in Ontario.
See our 2021 RFD Trane AC Group Buy
group-buy-gta-ottawa-2021-central-ac-gr ... e-2449494/
[OP]
Member
Nov 7, 2015
218 posts
79 upvotes
fergy wrote:
Someone may be able offer more assistance if you provided a location.

As above, are you sure you want a single speed? The two speed runs on low most of the time, is quieter and your home would feel warmer with the low speed heat. Running on low would also distribute the heat better and would help keep the whole house feeling warmer not just the rooms closest to the furnace.
Location added, Hamilton. In case someone is able to help.

Thanks for the advice. I have no clue what single vs 2 speed means? Can you please elaborate? Thank you
[OP]
Member
Nov 7, 2015
218 posts
79 upvotes
insertname2020 wrote: What exactly is wrong with it? Were you told?

10 year old is worth repairing including leaks* provided the compressor is still good.
*Unless it is r22.

Don't get conned into replacing something that may easily be repaired at a much lower cost.
A/C's been not working well since last year. Had a tech come out, said coolant was low and topped it up... I don't think that did much and was most likely scammed out of a few hundred dollars. Difficult finding honest HVAC techs who aren't in it for the big replacement $$
Deal Addict
Jun 16, 2009
3028 posts
1371 upvotes
Woodbridge
Ugly truth about the third party copper coils like ADP or Aspen
I Smaller in size than original coils thus providing inferior air flow.
2. Original coil is more work and money to install. If not than why not use original coils ??
3 Contractor save money and efforts by using these coils.
If the copper coils are superior than why all the manufacturers including Trane and Lennox moved away from it??
Trane, Lennox and other dealers do sell lot of other cheap stuff but that doesn’t make it “authorised” by the manufacturer

People claiming otherwise proved again that “ Every potter has to praise his pot”
HVAC Professional. Committed to customer, not brand.
Furnace & Central AC Group Buy 2021
Sr. Member
Oct 19, 2020
816 posts
497 upvotes
GTA
pureelite1 wrote: A/C's been not working well since last year. Had a tech come out, said coolant was low and topped it up... I don't think that did much and was most likely scammed out of a few hundred dollars. Difficult finding honest HVAC techs who aren't in it for the big replacement $$
Check the label on the outdoor unit and see if it says 410a or r22.

If it's the former, its worth getting a leak check done.

The outdoor unit/condenser could last another 10 years and you may just need a coil.



What's the brand/model of the unit? That can also be a factor when deciding to replace or repair.
A cheapo "builder's special" is less worth an expensive repair.
Sr. Member
Oct 19, 2020
816 posts
497 upvotes
GTA
Non-oem coils that are listed matches with ahri references numbers are "approved".
I would go for all aluminum over copper with aluminum fins myself, but it has nothing to do with the brand name of the coil.
The increased size of all aluminum coils likely has to do with the copper being better for heat transfer than aluminum.
The best source of airflow data of a coil is the manufacturer's tables which indicate how restrictive it is at different flow rates. This is a better gauge than physical size.

The contractor should indicate which coil is being installed and advantages/disadvantages - informed consent. :)
[OP]
Member
Nov 7, 2015
218 posts
79 upvotes
Thanks so much for all the information guys, learning a lot. I made a comparison table of the 2 quotes I received. Am I on the right track when it comes to comparing apples to apples as much as possible between different contractors. Are there other categories of these units I should be comparing? Thank you

I added the table to the original first post
Deal Addict
Jun 16, 2009
3028 posts
1371 upvotes
Woodbridge
It will be easier for us to provide you more information if you let us know how many more years you are going to stay in the particular house? Is it rental property or you are going to live in there to reap the benefits of "high end" equipment like Elite series from Lennox.
pureelite1 wrote: Thanks so much for all the information guys, learning a lot. I made a comparison table of the 2 quotes I received. Am I on the right track when it comes to comparing apples to apples as much as possible between different contractors. Are there other categories of these units I should be comparing? Thank you

I added the table to the original first post
HVAC Professional. Committed to customer, not brand.
Furnace & Central AC Group Buy 2021
Deal Guru
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Mar 13, 2004
11825 posts
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Ontario
If you have not already gotten a quote from @newlyborn hes one of the recommended HVAC companies on RFD with many positive reviews here & on homestars - https://homestars.com/companies/2876286 ... nditioning.

Hes very honest and does great work. Also he will install a manufacture Original A Coil unlike some HVAC companies that will go with the cheaper non manufacture A coils but still charge you top dollar.
Think of it this way if you take your car to a Mercedes dealership for a repair do you want them using Original Mercedes parts or a cheaper Chinese brand? Sure the cheaper brand might work but its not built exactly the same as a Mercedes part, they likely used a cheaper manufacture process so its possible it wont last or perform as well yet your paying top dollar for it.

Single speed vs 2 speeds means the blower fan can work at difference speeds. So in first stage (speed) it can run at lets say 40% (depends on manufacture) so you will get a slower steady stream of air coming our of your vents, this helps with keeping temperatures in the house more even & if its needed (usually after a certain amount of time if the thermostat is not satisfied ) it will kick into normal/higher speed to do so. It will generally make your home more comfortable however if you ever need to replace the blower motor in the future its more expensive then a single/one speed fan.
pureelite1 wrote: Location added, Hamilton. In case someone is able to help.
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Oct 19, 2020
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GTA
sickcars wrote: Single speed vs 2 speeds means the blower fan can work at difference speeds. So in first stage (speed) it can run at lets say 40% (depends on manufacture) so you will get a slower steady stream of air coming our of your vents, this helps with keeping temperatures in the house more even & if its needed (usually after a certain amount of time if the thermostat is not satisfied ) it will kick into normal/higher speed to do so. It will generally make your home more comfortable however if you ever need to replace the blower motor in the future its more expensive then a single/one speed fan.
Some misconceptions here - I'm correcting them here to help the op.

Even the most basic furnace comes with a blower motor that can run at more than one speed.
All new furnaces now come with "high efficiency" ecm motors.

There are two main types, constant torque and constant airflow. Of constant torque, there are sub-types with varying designs and repair costs. The constant airflow is sold as "variable" with the exception of the lower end carrier/bryant/keeprite 2-stage/variable ones, which ones operate as constant torque.

Constant torque motors have the airflow drop as the duct pressure increases and have to be manually set with measurements to get airflow right in each mode of operation. Most have 5-speed/torque taps.

Constant fan usually uses the low heat speed, for single stage furnace, there's usually a continuous speed terminal.

Constant airflow motors continuously adjust on the fly to deliver a specific amount of airflow, for each mode of operation.
These are very expensive to replace after warranty but have the advantage of really being able to dial in perfect airflow for a/c - getting flow right for cooling is more important than for heat. Whether to get this type of motor depends on the application and budget.

Staging is totally different.
The airflow needs are determined by capacity on each stage, less heat is produced on low and the fan speed is reduced (except for ml296v) roughly proportionally.
Lower airflow, but also less heat being produced.

You are also mistaken about coils; the third party coils like aspen and ADT are not made in china and not necessarily low quality.
Provided it is an approved match, the brand does not matter much, the material is more important if there are concerns about leakage. (formicary corrosion related)
Just about all the coils are fin and tube, they're built the similar and work the same when approved match.

---------------------------
As for the OP's unit comparison.
One is 45k and the other is 60k.

If the house can heat on 45k, surely do not want 60. The house would have to have uninsulated walls to need 60k!
The modern 60 has much higher airflow requirements and a 1200 sq ft bungalow is unlikely to have large enough ducts.
If 60 is required, on small ducts, the performance 96/59tp6 is the worst choice on the market because the motor is constant torque and at the same time, heating speed/flow can not be manually increased significantly to compensate for the ductwork.
Need the infinity which has a constant airflow motor, or another brand that has constant airflow motor or constant torque with allowance for major heating speed adjustments.

If the house does need 60k, forget single stage, because it could be noisy/drafty on high due to high airflow requirements relative to the size of the space.

For cooling, same idea.
Do not get a 2 ton if 1.5 ton is sufficient.
The 2 ton needs more airflow than 1.5 and with all basement vents closed, the 2 ton may not get sufficient airflow or the blower motor will struggle to deliver what's needed.
Not to mention, oversizing reduces dehumidification.
It would take uninsulated walls and/or poorly insulated/ventilated attic and high east-west window surface area to need 2 tons.

1. You do not need to replace a furnace when replacing the a/c, your contractor is lying if he says you need to.

2. You do not necessary need to replace the a/c as stated previously. I've suggested looking into repair, so for that's been ignored.
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Mar 13, 2004
11825 posts
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Ontario
Thanks for the info about single speed/2 speed.

As for the Coils, I did not say they were made in china, my example of a car part was that it was made in china so OP could have an idea of what some HVAC companies are doing.

Something that is "Approved" does not mean its the best solution or that it performs as an original Carrier/Trane etc coil. If an aftermarket company is making a coil for a Carrier AC for example its going to likely go off the original design but it would likely make changes to that design to come in at a cheaper cost so they can compete. Where are these changes made? Nobody really knows but it could be things like thinner or lower quality metal used, it could be an easier to manufacture fins but might not flow as much air, maybe more prone to corrosion or leaks? and so on and so on. If somebody is paying premium for a brand name system then they would expect to get the whole system that's made by Carrier or Trane etc not different branded parts IMO and especially a part that's likely lesser of quality then an Original part & not told about it.

insertname2020 wrote:
You are also mistaken about coils; the third party coils like aspen and ADT are not made in china and not necessarily low quality.
Provided it is an approved match, the brand does not matter much, the material is more important if there are concerns about leakage. (formicary corrosion related)
Just about all the coils are fin and tube, they're built the similar and work the same when approved match.

Deal Expert
User avatar
Nov 28, 2016
21141 posts
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Out west
insertname2020 wrote: Some misconceptions here - I'm correcting them here to help the op.

Even the most basic furnace comes with a blower motor that can run at more than one speed.
All new furnaces now come with "high efficiency" ecm motors.

There are two main types, constant torque and constant airflow. Of constant torque, there are sub-types with varying designs and repair costs. The constant airflow is sold as "variable" with the exception of the lower end carrier/bryant/keeprite 2-stage/variable ones, which ones operate as constant torque.

Constant torque motors have the airflow drop as the duct pressure increases and have to be manually set with measurements to get airflow right in each mode of operation. Most have 5-speed/torque taps.

Constant fan usually uses the low heat speed, for single stage furnace, there's usually a continuous speed terminal.

Constant airflow motors continuously adjust on the fly to deliver a specific amount of airflow, for each mode of operation.
These are very expensive to replace after warranty but have the advantage of really being able to dial in perfect airflow for a/c - getting flow right for cooling is more important than for heat. Whether to get this type of motor depends on the application and budget.

Staging is totally different.
The airflow needs are determined by capacity on each stage, less heat is produced on low and the fan speed is reduced (except for ml296v) roughly proportionally.
Lower airflow, but also less heat being produced.

You are also mistaken about coils; the third party coils like aspen and ADT are not made in china and not necessarily low quality.
Provided it is an approved match, the brand does not matter much, the material is more important if there are concerns about leakage. (formicary corrosion related)
Just about all the coils are fin and tube, they're built the similar and work the same when approved match.

---------------------------
As for the OP's unit comparison.
One is 45k and the other is 60k.

If the house can heat on 45k, surely do not want 60. The house would have to have uninsulated walls to need 60k!
The modern 60 has much higher airflow requirements and a 1200 sq ft bungalow is unlikely to have large enough ducts.
If 60 is required, on small ducts, the performance 96/59tp6 is the worst choice on the market because the motor is constant torque and at the same time, heating speed/flow can not be manually increased significantly to compensate for the ductwork.
Need the infinity which has a constant airflow motor, or another brand that has constant airflow motor or constant torque with allowance for major heating speed adjustments.

If the house does need 60k, forget single stage, because it could be noisy/drafty on high due to high airflow requirements relative to the size of the space.

For cooling, same idea.
Do not get a 2 ton if 1.5 ton is sufficient.
The 2 ton needs more airflow than 1.5 and with all basement vents closed, the 2 ton may not get sufficient airflow or the blower motor will struggle to deliver what's needed.
Not to mention, oversizing reduces dehumidification.
It would take uninsulated walls and/or poorly insulated/ventilated attic and high east-west window surface area to need 2 tons.

1. You do not need to replace a furnace when replacing the a/c, your contractor is lying if he says you need to.

2. You do not necessary need to replace the a/c as stated previously. I've suggested looking into repair, so for that's been ignored.
It would take uninsulated walls and/or poorly insulated/ventilated attic and high east-west window surface area to need 2 tons.

For your quote there, this is not for the entire country. All depends wherer the OP lives, do you get +38 in Ontario with no or low humidty for 2 weeks in a row?

That same size house in southern SK and AB, would need a 2.5 ton or maybe even a 3 ton, becaue they dont need to worry about dehumidification at all for the summer. I know people that are undersized, and the ac runs all day and cant keep up to the cooling demands on the heat wavess

Saying that, over sizing is bad, but 1200 sq feet out east is not the same as 1200 sq feet on the prairies.

My house, I have a 3 ton, 2750 sq feet combined both floors. Most people here have that size, or bigger, due to the demands in summer.

Even the same house, city to country, in the same loacation and temps, would have different coolling needs, because rural doesnt get as hot end of day due to lack of concrete that retains and then puts that heat off end of day.

I can drive 5 miles with the same temp outside, and its cooler on an acreage in the evenings than it is in the city, due to all that

And you are providing the undersizing thing again in the post about heat. Its like you want people to purposly undersize the heating for their house. Why is that??? There are so many factors when it comes to hosue heating and cooling, that you cant just take sq. footage as your only factor
Sr. Member
Jan 19, 2013
615 posts
402 upvotes
Ottawa
I wouldnt go to say adp coils are "premium" coils but a quality 3rd party coil mfr
Haven't had much issues with adp coils.
If adp coils are "premium" what are oem coils called then? Ultra-premium???
I chuckle at trane dealer here pushing "premium" lennox 3rd party coils with their trane units lol
Lennox owns adp btw.....

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