Automotive

ICE, Hybrid or EV with a 65km daily one-way commute?

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  • Mar 19th, 2021 7:28 pm
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Sr. Member
Feb 25, 2015
693 posts
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ES_Revenge wrote: You can negotiate buyouts with Toyota? I thought carmakers stopped doing that in the 00s...
You can't negotiate the buyout price. But end of lease is the best time to negotiate as they are hungry to move a new car. You can negotiate in the sense that you have equity at play. You get the balance of power. As the dealer won't want you to buyout the vehicle and walk with the equity in your pocket.
[OP]
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Dec 3, 2019
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Hindenburg1 wrote: Good breakdown. What if you adjust the numbers a bit there. Gas at $1.30 is a bit high. We cannot predict what it will be in the next 3 years. If we go by what unleaded gas cost in the last 3 years in Toronto according to Statscan (from March 2019 - March 2021), on average we get $1.08/L.

The electricity pricing is a little low. I pay 12.8c/kwh with no tiers. If you strictly charge on off peak and pay time of use rates, the last 3 years works out to about 9.6c/kwh on average.
Added assumptions more clearly in the header for easier comparison. Also added the Bolt EUV.
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Even at 1.08 gas, which seems low in the current market, The EUV starts pulling ahead in future years. But I imagine there's some sort of annual Super Cruise fee that I need to account for...
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davisml wrote: Added assumptions more clearly in the header for easier comparison. Also added the Bolt EUV.
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Even at 1.08 gas, which seems low in the current market, The EUV starts pulling ahead in future years. But I imagine there's some sort of annual Super Cruise fee that I need to account for...
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You're definitely 15% high on your electricity consumption and cost estimates, and 15% low on your gas cost estimates.
[OP]
Newbie
Dec 3, 2019
66 posts
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Rob_EV wrote: You're definitely 15% high on your electricity consumption and cost estimates, and 15% low on your gas cost estimates.
I was just answering @Hindenburg1 's question with the inputs he provided. I agree the gas seems low.
Here's what it looks like with your input, with -15% on electric and +15% on gas. Why do you think electric consumption is low? I spot checked a few comparable EVs and 17kwh/100km seems reasonable.
What would you use and why?

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Sep 10, 2008
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davisml wrote: I was just answering @Hindenburg1 's question with the inputs he provided. I agree the gas seems low.
Here's what it looks like with your input, with -15% on electric and +15% on gas. Why do you think electric consumption is low? I spot checked a few comparable EVs and 17kwh/100km seems reasonable.
What would you use and why?

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Also, who the hell (other than me) is paying $1100 for the EV install? I recently had 2x 100' 60A circuits run for $1100 for 2 future 48A Tesla Wall Connectors.

Either my electrician isn't charging me enough or everyone else is getting gouged.
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Feb 29, 2008
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Montreal
Rob_EV wrote: Also, who the hell (other than me) is paying $1100 for the EV install? I recently had 2x 100' 60A circuits run for $1100 for 2 future 48A Tesla Wall Connectors.

Either my electrician isn't charging me enough or everyone else is getting gouged.
I paid 550$ for the install: NEMA 6-50, a few feet of wire and a 40a breaker. The EVSE was 599$. This was in 2016.

However quebec had a 650$ incentive at the time which made it more affordable.
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mr_raider wrote: I paid 550$ for the install: NEMA 6-50, a few feet of wire and a 40a breaker. The EVSE was 599$. This was in 2016.

However quebec had a 650$ incentive at the time which made it more affordable.
EXACTLY, so you're proving my point that $1100 for a bit of electrical work is a crazy high estimate. These vehicles ALL come with basic charging cables.
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Jul 21, 2005
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Rob_EV wrote: Also, who the hell (other than me) is paying $1100 for the EV install? I recently had 2x 100' 60A circuits run for $1100 for 2 future 48A Tesla Wall Connectors.

Either my electrician isn't charging me enough or everyone else is getting gouged.
Charging has two parts: charging station and installation. I guess you're talking of installation only. Installation varies a lot. If there's no epectrical special needs, then it's cheap. But if the electrical box is maxed and if it's far from the charging station, cost can explode.
Last edited by SPARTACVS on Mar 18th, 2021 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
Pourquoi pas?
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SPARTACVS wrote: But if the electrical box is maxed and if it's far from the charging station, cost can plumet.
Welcome to my nightmare :(
Member
Oct 15, 2005
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Toronto
Your electric costs exclude the transmission fee, and regulatory fee per kwh. Also have not accounted for line loss that shows on your bill or HST.
Gas prices at the pump are inclusive of all tax.

Then if you really want to get detailed you need to account for charging efficiency, as 1kWh from the wall doesn't translate to 1kWh in the battery.
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Rob_EV wrote: EXACTLY, so you're proving my point that $1100 for a bit of electrical work is a crazy high estimate. These vehicles ALL come with basic charging cables.
I paid $1,400 in labour plus the cost of the tesla charger. I likely could have shopped it around but I called two companies that was on the tesla list. Something rubbed me wrong about the first company so I went with the second.

100amp panel, finished basement and they ran the lines out to the front of my garage. Took two guys around 2hours or so.
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Op if you are trying to find lowest cost of ownership then purchase a used ICE vehicle. It only needs to last 3 years grab something for 10,000 and call it a day.

If you want to move in to the future and have a better experience (with a bit of fun) pickup a quick all electric vehicle. For arguments sakes a mach e or model y. You'll never break even so don't bother even trying to calculate late it. I've tried and I've factored in free charging for my 85km each way commute.

But I picked the ev anyway because it's more enjoyable to me and that impossible to calculate in excel.
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Double_J wrote: Op if you are trying to find lowest cost of ownership then purchase a used ICE vehicle. It only needs to last 3 years grab something for 10,000 and call it a day.

If you want to move in to the future and have a better experience (with a bit of fun) pickup a quick all electric vehicle. For arguments sakes a mach e or model y. You'll never break even so don't bother even trying to calculate late it. I've tried and I've factored in free charging for my 85km each way commute.

But I picked the ev anyway because it's more enjoyable to me and that impossible to calculate in excel.
Just went to my local Tesla mechanic last night to have a few things looked at. At 192,000+km I have a rear bushing (in the spindle/knuckle assembly) going bad. The guy who was there a few days ago who has 350,000+km on his '18 Model 3 apparently has it worse. I'm getting pricing today. The mechanic is thinking that the original brakes on the higher mileage vehicle may NOT last to 500,000km.

Thing is....when you drive a lot, the car DOES in fact pay for itself (specifically the Model 3 SR+ or MAYBE the Model Y SR). The Model 3 or Model Y dual motor models are just too expensive to ever fully recover the costs on.
Last edited by Rob_EV on Mar 18th, 2021 8:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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MZ_3 wrote: Your electric costs exclude the transmission fee, and regulatory fee per kwh. Also have not accounted for line loss that shows on your bill or HST.
Gas prices at the pump are inclusive of all tax.

Then if you really want to get detailed you need to account for charging efficiency, as 1kWh from the wall doesn't translate to 1kWh in the battery.
My EV charging costs in Ontario work out to 10.7c per kWh all in. The car uses about 130Wh/km spring/summer/fall.......but 150Wh/km average year round (when not pulling a trailer).

it's fairly close to $1.50/100km.
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Apr 12, 2012
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Blubbs wrote: Do you care about comfort? Because that's a lot of driving.

I've driven 7000kms in my Honda Clarity and used $22 of gas so far. It has a next level smooth suspension, on par with our Audi Q7's air suspension (though slightly less controlled). It's waaaay more comfortable than a Volt.

With that commute an Accord Hybrid or Camry Hybrid might make the most sense (depends on whether you can destination charge). Large smooth comfort car. Or maybe the best of them all, a used Lexus ES300H. That will keep your bum supple all day long.

An SUV doesn't make sense at all with that commute. Period.
Agreed, a midsize sedan would work really well. Even ICE many of them get 40MPG or around 6-7L per 100km which is really good (highway). In terms of leg room I found these sedans to be better than many SUVs. A hybrid vs ICE on the highway doesn't make much difference in fuel economy. Plus the general driving dynamics in a car are much better than big boat SUVs.
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zobi123 wrote: A hybrid vs ICE on the highway doesn't make much difference in fuel economy.
We got around 4.9L/100km on our 2014 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid fairly consistently (in the warmer months) whether we were driving city or highway (driving like a granny). Typically around 1300km per tank and we'd running on fumes. In the winter months, our efficiency got destroyed by about 50%......and we'd get around 7 to 8L/100km.

In order to get that efficiency, you'd have to baby it.....and also there wasn't much trunk space (and seats didn't fold). Eventually traded it for a BMW i3 (which I don't actually recommend). The i3 is way more efficient, with lots more power and a much larger trunk but there are MANY better EVs out there these days.
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Mar 2, 2021
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Rob_EV wrote: We got around 4.9L/100km on our 2014 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid fairly consistently (in the warmer months) whether we were driving city or highway (driving like a granny). Typically around 1300km per tank and we'd running on fumes. In the winter months, our efficiency got destroyed by about 50%......and we'd get around 7 to 8L/100km.

In order to get that efficiency, you'd have to baby it.....and also there wasn't much trunk space (and seats didn't fold). Eventually traded it for a BMW i3 (which I don't actually recommend). The i3 is way more efficient, with lots more power and a much larger trunk but there are MANY better EVs out there these days.
My Kia Forte 2015 gets 5.5 on hwy constantly. No hybrid.
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Mariusic wrote: My Kia Forte 2015 gets 5.5 on hwy constantly. No hybrid.
Right, the Sonata is a much larger vehicle that weighs 750lbs more. You would EXPECT the 2850lb Forte with the smaller engine to get better fuel economy. My Civic DX didn't even get below 7.0L/100km on the highway because of crappy gearing (5th gear in the city AND on the highway).
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Rob_EV wrote: Right, the Sonata is a much larger vehicle that weighs 750lbs more. You would EXPECT the 2850lb Forte with the smaller engine to get better fuel economy. My Civic DX didn't even get below 7.0L/100km on the highway because of crappy gearing (5th gear in the city AND on the highway).
I know well too well the shit Honda Civic as I've owned it too. Besides it's engine block cracking and Honda telling customers to go pound sand, the manual 5th gear would reach 3000 RPM at 110km/h. If you would drive 130km/h, it would be 3700 RPM (over 3500 RPM when VTEC kicked in) and it would consume 10L/100km. Frikin SUV consumtion for a compact sedan. Just horrendous. Edmonton-Calgary wasted 30L for 300km. Meanwhile Kia Forte gets less than 7L at 130km/h.
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My 2018 civic lx is pretty good on gas. I babied it and got 900km out of a tank due to driving on the highway. With some stop and go or a bit of in town travel I could still get 800km. That was partly my problem when trying to justify the gas savings when picking the MY. The low up front cost didn't help the argument either. I don't regret the tesla at all, but if you try to compare total ownership an inexpensive used economy vehicle it will be tough to beat over the 3 yr term he's saying. I paid 12k for it. No repairs because Hondas last awhile. Ive had it 2yrs now and I'm sure I could sell it for a few grand easily. So my total cost is peanuts.

That was 4.7L/100km I believe. I've often hit 5.0
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