Computers & Electronics

Intel processors will take 5-30% performance hit (Windows/Linux) to fix kernel security bug

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ChubChub wrote: KPTI was enabled on Ryzen chips for some reason; essentially that alone makes all of those benchmarks useless (for AMD). KPTI is not needed for AMDs chips (not susceptible to Meltdown), so the decision to enable it is purely to exaggerate the performance hit (KPTI is basically what is screwing Intel's chips). As well, these are beta changes to the compiler and kernel; considerable optimizations are likely in the pipe (and probably will not make it into kernel 4.15), especially once the microcode updates (from both Intel, and AMD) expose new features to mitigate this performance impact.

I am not making ANY excuses for Ryzen; were you reading what I wrote? I was simply defending the fact that the lawsuit is largely based on false information; class action lawsuits are very lucrative for lawyers, so they just need to convince someone with deep-ish pockets that they have a case, and lawyers win regardless.

If I get a patch that kills performance in a way that actually impacts me, I'll be pretty pissed; I bought a workstation CPU with a certain level of performance (this machine actually generates cash for me by way of hosting various specialized VMs), and I expect it to stay there, or possibly get better (which it conveniently has over the last 8 months). Unlike you, I don't blindly love one company, and hate the other, regardless of performance in my use-case. However, as it sits, Meltdown impacts me 0% after the MS patch (which I was happy to see; Microsoft originally was not going to exclude the AMD CPUs from performance-sapping changes), and the Spectre updates are looking like it will largely not impact me either (that one benchmark where the GCC compiler had a large marked positive impact on performance tells me there is a lot of opportunity for restoring some of that precious I/O).

You really should not blindly look at benchmarks without paying attention to the methodology (benchmarking an Intel system with an SSD versus an AMD system with an NVMe drive as an example of KPTI-level unfairness); when someone pulls obvious shenanigans, you should realise they're probably doing it for a reason, and expect that reason is nefarious.
You are making excuses for AMD and you're spewing nonsense conjecture. Here are the facts:

- AMD said that their chips are completely unaffected by Meltdown and Spectre (not true)
- AMD said there would be no performance degradation on their chips (not true)

How is that so hard for you to understand? It was even their CEO saying this. And you're trying to pretend that they weren't being deceptive? Whether it affected their stock price or not, it was incredibly dishonest.

Now you're trying to discredit the benchmarks. Straight out of the playbook. I can't wait for the dust to settle on this one. I can guarantee you that the AMD chips are going to take a performance hit due to Spectre. Like I said, it is the most serious bug in terms of performance impact. And that information comes straight from Microsoft. You can argue with that all you want.
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SickBeast wrote: - AMD said that their chips are completely unaffected by Meltdown and Spectre (not true)
- AMD said there would be no performance degradation on their chips (not true)
No they didn't ... ever.
SickBeast wrote: ... I can guarantee you that the AMD chips are going to take a performance hit due to Spectre.
Well, AMD said it would, so that makes sense.

Edit: My bad, KPTI was not enabled on those benchmarks; updated my post to reflect this.
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This morning in a press release, Intel announced that it has “issued firmware updates for 90 percent of Intel CPUs introduced in the past five years.”
https://gizmodo.com/intel-claims-90-per ... 1822192075

So "5 years" probably means they haven't issued a patch for anything earlier than Haswell. Does that mean they never will? Intel having issued a patch, who is now responsible for applying the patch? The motherboard manufacturer? How many of them have issued patches, and how far back are they going? And what are the 10% of Intel processors of the last 5 years that don't have patches?
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I'm not a fanboy of Intel or AMD, but I must say that I'm LOVING my Ryzen 5.
Baaaaaaaaa!
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Exp315 wrote: This morning in a press release, Intel announced that it has “issued firmware updates for 90 percent of Intel CPUs introduced in the past five years.”
https://gizmodo.com/intel-claims-90-per ... 1822192075

So "5 years" probably means they haven't issued a patch for anything earlier than Haswell. Does that mean they never will? Intel having issued a patch, who is now responsible for applying the patch? The motherboard manufacturer? How many of them have issued patches, and how far back are they going? And what are the 10% of Intel processors of the last 5 years that don't have patches?
Seeing as Lenovo is saying they will get Sandy and Ivy bridge microcode updates. That’s probably where the line will be drawn. But most OEMs seem to be going only to Ivy Bridge. And on the consumer side (Gigabyte, ASUS, etc) basically Skylake and newer.

However it seems ASUS may patch business boards. While there’s no updates for my Z97-Pro. They did release a Beta Bios w/ the microcode update for the B85M-G board I also have. Go figure!
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5 years would usually be enough, but the 2600k was one of the best cpu's ever made. It still has legs, but it's 7 years old now :( I was hoping mine would get an update. The only positive spin, is that I've already been starting to think about an upgrade. Eventually when Intel figures out their cpu issues, I'll probably end up replacing it anyways.
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tkyoshi wrote: Seeing as Lenovo is saying they will get Sandy and Ivy bridge microcode updates. That’s probably where the line will be drawn. But most OEMs seem to be going only to Ivy Bridge. And on the consumer side (Gigabyte, ASUS, etc) basically Skylake and newer.

However it seems ASUS may patch business boards. While there’s no updates for my Z97-Pro. They did release a Beta Bios w/ the microcode update for the B85M-G board I also have. Go figure!
The B85M is still being sold, is why. Did you update yours? I'm a little concerned with reports of Haswell instability with the new microcode.
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JAC wrote: The B85M is still being sold, is why. Did you update yours? I'm a little concerned with reports of Haswell instability with the new microcode.
Interesting cause it’s not a CSM model but even then CSM lines only guarantee up to 3 years of availability from launch which has also passed. But hey! Who am I to complain that they’re seemingly going to provide updates for that board.

Anyway no I have halted any further flashing until Intel provides better microcode. Seeing as they’ve confirmed the page fault bug basically exists in the updated microcode for all CPUs (yes even Skylake and Kaby Lake now) might as well hold off. Unlike a flaky BIOS you can't just downgrade to a previous version if it goes sideways.

I don't believe Intel has even found the definitive root cause because they mentioned yesterday they are aiming provide "beta microcode" to OEMs next week - note they said "beta".
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how about the arm issue.

how come there is no discussion on the arm problem too
https://developer.arm.com/support/security-update
https://source.android.com/security/bulletin/2018-01-01


I pretty sure their are plenty of arm devices that have never seen an update or will much less as of this month. That people still use day to day.Factor that on top of krack too!

Rpi users are safe tho
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Off Topic, I finally fixed my Acer Aspire 4520 laptop (I use it mainly for presentation) came with Vista originally and upgraded to Windows 7 and then Windows 10. Upgraded HDD to SDD, the laptop would hang or unable to detect the SDD (no OS installed error) once in a while. Bought a $10 250GB hdd to replace the SSD, all is well now, I even down graded it back to Windows 7.

I think the problem is the laptop is SATA 1 and the bios having hard time for SATA 3 devices. the HDD is sata 2 and original one is sata 1 (I think).
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apvm wrote: Off Topic, I finally fixed my Acer Aspire 4520 laptop (I use it mainly for presentation) came with Vista originally and upgraded to Windows 7 and then Windows 10. Upgraded HDD to SDD, the laptop would hang or unable to detect the SDD (no OS installed error) once in a while. Bought a $10 250GB hdd to replace the SSD, all is well now, I even down graded it back to Windows 7.

I think the problem is the laptop is SATA 1 and the bios having hard time for SATA 3 devices. the HDD is sata 2 and original one is sata 1 (I think).
Did you check the SSD to make sure that it is not defective? Laptops from that era are SATA 2 port 100% and not SATA 1. According to this site it would be compatible with a SSD.

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/compatibl ... spire-4520

All new SATA SSD this gen are backwards compatible with SATA3 and SATA2, not with SATA1. If you put a SSD in a SATA1 computer the BIOS wouldn't even detect it, and the computer wouldn't even boot. Unless it was an old gen SSD from 2009 or something like the OCZ VERTEX (gen 1) 60GB. That drive would work with a SATA1 computer. But that laptop is definitely not SATA1, its SATA2 for sure. Either your machine doesn't like that particular SSD (you didn't mention brand) or the SSD is defective. I put a crappy Kingston V300 in a friends, dad Toshiba laptop from that era (Core 2 Duo CPU) with DDR2 memory and it works just fine. Speeds topped out at 260~ Mbps on the read/write when I did benches, confirming max bandwidth was SATA2 (300GBPS) port.
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heyyahblah wrote: Did you check the SSD to make sure that it is not defective? Laptops from that era are SATA 2 port 100% and not SATA 1. According to this site it would be compatible with a SSD.

http://www.crucial.com/usa/en/compatibl ... spire-4520

All new SATA SSD this gen are backwards compatible with SATA3 and SATA2, not with SATA1. If you put a SSD in a SATA1 computer the BIOS wouldn't even detect it, and the computer wouldn't even boot. Unless it was an old gen SSD from 2009 or something like the OCZ VERTEX (gen 1) 60GB. That drive would work with a SATA1 computer. But that laptop is definitely not SATA1, its SATA2 for sure. Either your machine doesn't like that particular SSD (you didn't mention brand) or the SSD is defective. I put a crappy Kingston V300 in a friends, dad Toshiba laptop from that era (Core 2 Duo CPU) with DDR2 memory and it works just fine. Speeds topped out at 260~ Mbps on the read/write when I did benches, confirming max bandwidth was SATA2 (300GBPS) port.
You are right it is sata 2, just used crystalinfo to check the HDD and it is running at SATA300, the SSD is a Transcend SSD340 256GB, I'll check it later to see if it is defective since it is still under warranty (I think). What program should I use to check it? TIA

Update: Just used Transcend own software and crystalinfo to check, no errors. Looks like it is the Nvida chipset that the laptop has does not like SSD, Laptop is AMD Turion x2 cpu with Nvidia chipset.
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apvm wrote: Update: Just used Transcend own software and crystalinfo to check, no errors. Looks like it is the Nvida chipset that the laptop has does not like SSD, Laptop is AMD Turion x2 cpu with Nvidia chipset.
So looks like the notebook doesn't like the type of controller that the SSD is using. That's why I like to know about what controllers are being used inside the SSD before buying. I know this is RFD, but I personally myself would never buy SSD's with brands like PNY, Transcend, Avexir, Silicon Power, (just the names themselves turn me off). If I wanted a budget SSD, I would go with something more reliable like ADATA, or Kingston V400. If you want to step it up Kingston HyperX or Savage line. Definitely a fan of Crucial, they seem good bang for the buck for NAND, and Samsung, even though they screwed me once, getting more and more reliable and still majority of SSD sellers.
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heyyahblah wrote: So looks like the notebook doesn't like the type of controller that the SSD is using. That's why I like to know about what controllers are being used inside the SSD before buying. I know this is RFD, but I personally myself would never buy SSD's with brands like PNY, Transcend, Avexir, Silicon Power, (just the names themselves turn me off). If I wanted a budget SSD, I would go with something more reliable like ADATA, or Kingston V400. If you want to step it up Kingston HyperX or Savage line. Definitely a fan of Crucial, they seem good bang for the buck for NAND, and Samsung, even though they screwed me once, getting more and more reliable and still majority of SSD sellers.
Possible, I used one that you hate, a Silicon Power 120GB before the Transcend, if memory serves me right, that one has no problem. At least now I know, my presentation laptop is still working and I don't need to buy a new one. Thanks for your comment.
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What's the earliest CPU generation that Intel is going to patch? (...for Meltdown and Spectre bugs)

Asking because checking at Lenovo it seems they'll patch up to Haswell-equipped PCs [initially they had Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge PCs in their release schedule but they dropped them in their latest scheduled release tables].

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aviador wrote: What's the earliest CPU generation that Intel is going to patch? (...for Meltdown and Spectre bugs)

Asking because checking at Lenovo it seems they'll patch up to Haswell-equipped PCs [initially they had Sandy Bridge and Ivy Bridge PCs in their release schedule but they dropped them in their latest scheduled release tables].
Really? So they won't even patch their more expensive lines of laptops like the Thinkpad x220 and x230? I thought they would patch these machines as they are super fast and reliable these days still. Wow ....
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radeonboy wrote: So where does one download the Intel firmware?
AFAIU, Intel (and AMD) provides the CPU firmware patch to the manufacturer of your machine and that manufacturer packages it for you. So the availability of a patch depends on the goodwill of both Intel and the manufacturer of your computer/mobo/etc.
Actually getting those firmware updates is tricky, because firmware updates aren’t issued directly from Intel and AMD. Instead, you need to snag them from the company that made your laptop, PC, or motherboard—think HP, Dell, Gigabyte, et cetera. Because of that, patches for individual systems will likely take longer than Intel and AMD’s stated timelines to trickle down to home users. Most prebuilt computers and laptops have a sticker with model details somewhere on their exterior. Find that, then search for the support page for your PC or motherboard’s model number.
https://www.pcworld.com/article/3245810 ... flaws.html

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Does this apply to the i8's? Seems like bad timing to buy one lol but unfortunately the program says get at least 8 GB of ram instead of the 4 I have.

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