Real Estate

Locked: Joint title dilemma.....

  • Last Updated:
  • Jul 11th, 2020 8:23 am
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[OP]
Newbie
Jan 1, 2008
68 posts
29 upvotes

Joint title dilemma.....

Hi everyone. My brother and myself bought a house together 5 years ago that we agreed we would hold onto as retirement nest egg. Now our mortgage is up for renewal and he's going through Jekyll and Hyde episodes every other day.

There's so much behind the scenes that I can't even begin to get into, otherwise this post will turn into a novel! Basically he wants to sell and I don't. He wants me to buy him out and get a mortgage to cover his share of the FMV, but I would never qualify. He told me that he "will not sign" the mortgage renewal.

What are the possible outcomes with this situation?

Thx in advance!
Last edited by dhlwtu on Jul 11th, 2020 12:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
22 replies
Deal Addict
Sep 2, 2009
2400 posts
2423 upvotes
Ottawa
I think he has told you what you need to do. Can't qualify without him (have you tried?)... Sounds like it is time to sell and move on (and keep the relationship).

Plans can change and trying to force him to stay will just make you the bad guy.

However, sell smart. Fix, stage, declutter. Hope you turn a profit which can help you down the road.
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 1, 2008
68 posts
29 upvotes
I can qualify on current mortgage owing without him. What my concern is, him refusing to sign. Currently we are both on title (mistake) but he says he will not sign renewal.

Going forward I would never do business with family!
Last edited by dhlwtu on Jul 9th, 2020 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Deal Addict
Mar 27, 2015
1550 posts
672 upvotes
Thornhill, ON
If there is all this drama with him maybe you should take this opportunity to cut ties (i.e. sell the property) and count your lucky stars you were able to get out of this investment (which doesn't appear to be working for you anymore).
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 1, 2008
68 posts
29 upvotes
icantfigureoutausername wrote: If there is all this drama with him maybe you should take this opportunity to cut ties (i.e. sell the property) and count your lucky stars you were able to get out of this investment (which doesn't appear to be working for you anymore).
But I don't want to sell. He wants to sell to "inhale" his share up his nose and through his veins.
Deal Addict
Sep 2, 2009
2400 posts
2423 upvotes
Ottawa
dhlwtu wrote: I can qualify on current mortgage owing without him. What my concern is, him refusing to sign. Currently we are both on title (mistake) but he says he will not sign renewal.

Going forward I would never do business with family!
You stated "but I would never qualify". Sounds like, if you don't buy him out you "qualify"? That's not the situation you presented though. Can you qualify alone at FMV?
[OP]
Newbie
Jan 1, 2008
68 posts
29 upvotes
cloak wrote: You stated "but I would never qualify". Sounds like, if you don't buy him out you "qualify"? That's not the situation you presented though. Can you qualify alone at FMV?
At FMV I can't qualify. We owe 300k and house is worth over mil. I was going to sign off my share on another property.
Deal Addict
Sep 2, 2009
2400 posts
2423 upvotes
Ottawa
dhlwtu wrote: At FMV I can't qualify. We owe 300k and house is worth over mil. I was going to sign off my share on another property.
All you can do then is confirm you wouldn't qualify (unlikely from the sounds of it) or sell and enjoy the money to be used elsewhere.
Deal Addict
Jun 14, 2018
1275 posts
1562 upvotes
Sell and enjoy your half of the proceeds. At the end of the day, you've made a nice profit from this property.

Let your brother have his half and do whatever he wants with it, and you can use your shares towards your next investment. Simple as that.
Deal Addict
Nov 13, 2013
3811 posts
2361 upvotes
Ottawa
dhlwtu wrote: But I don't want to sell. He wants to sell to "inhale" his share up his nose and through his veins.
Don't pretend this is not going to happen anyway. Maybe he will use the rent money for a few months and not deposit it. Maybe he will get a HELOC forging your name. Who knows.
As everyone has said sell and move on. Another reason not mentioned to do this is even if you buy him out the property could be a thorn in your relationship. 5 years from now if this place is worth 2 million, your brother is sober but down and out he will probably be resentful that you "tricked" him in his difficult time and made a huge profit on your joint investment. Who cares some will say but you obviously care about your relationship with your brother so it doesn't matter how reasonable or unreasonable his resentment is you still want to avoid it.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Dec 3, 2004
6820 posts
8484 upvotes
74629315 downvotes
I'm surprised you haven't mentioned (and no one has asked) but is this a property you both live in, or is it a rental investment property?

I am assuming you both live in it together.

If he is joint title and wants out, and there is a mortgage on it, then there is nothing you can do. Furthermore, why would you want to renew a fresh mortgage with a coke addict? What will you do if he stops making mortgage payments? What if he starts bringing undesirable people around. Never know what people will do when drugs are involved.

Cut it loose and move on with your life. You actually already answered your own question. In your post above, you said "Going forward I would never do business with family!" but that is exactly what you are considering doing by renewing a mortgage with your brother.
Sr. Member
Nov 22, 2017
931 posts
683 upvotes
The way you painted the picture there's only one option here. Sell the property split ties. Even if you end up changing his mind, it sounds like the relationship has turned sour. There's always the option to downgrade and buy something more affordable that you could qualify.
Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
3376 posts
3710 upvotes
Montreal
dhlwtu wrote: What are the possible outcomes with this situation?
All bad unless you sell. You have no choice.
Deal Fanatic
Nov 22, 2015
6687 posts
6665 upvotes
If he refuses to sign the renewal, it should just automatically renew... Typically a 6 month open mortgage with high rates

Sell the place
Deal Fanatic
Jan 15, 2017
5232 posts
5273 upvotes
Ottawa
You entered into a partnership with your brother and now your brother wants the partnership to end. The reasons why are irrelevant. The partnership is over. Doesn't matter what you want as your brother wants out. Sale the house and be done.
Member
Dec 12, 2011
203 posts
224 upvotes
Toronto
You have only one option and that is to sell the place. Let this be a lesson to anybody that is looking to purchase property with a partner. If one person decides they want to sell, they can easily force the other's hand regardless of whatever agreement they had prior to the purchase. The wife and I almost made the same mistake purchasing with her sister and husband.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Sep 14, 2003
10876 posts
974 upvotes
Mississauga
Do you have a partnership agreement of some sort? If not, that's really stupid.

The fact is, your brother is actually the one stuck. If he doesn't sign the mortgage agreement, it's not like your mortgage goes away. Typically it will auto-renew at a very unfavourable rate, which you'll both have to pay. He also can't just sell the place on his own, because he needs to have your agreement.

If you want to be a jerk about it, he's probably got less control than you do to change things. If you want to still have a relationship with him, best to sell and move on.
4chan melts your brain.
Deal Addict
Mar 2, 2017
3245 posts
6213 upvotes
Toronto/Markham
OP, you seem to insinuate your brother is a drug addict and he will piss the profits away, however none of that is relevant to his right as a co owner to liquidate his position regardless of his reason.

The problem here is created by you, not liking the options you have as they do not work to your narrative. You have 2 perfectly reasonable options, sell home or buy him out. If you can't afford to or are not willing to do it, there is nothing here left to debate.

Sell the home, find a new investment.
RE Broker
Deal Addict
Jun 14, 2018
1275 posts
1562 upvotes
Yeah, the other thing here is that you have no right to hold his money hostage (which by my math, his half looks to be ~$350,000 before fees and taxes) for your own benefit. Maybe he's using some of the money on drugs, but maybe he's also going to put some of the money to good use. None of that matters. At the end of the day, it's his money and he wants to use it now rather than wait until he's 65.

Don't be a scumbag and do the right thing.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Sep 14, 2003
10876 posts
974 upvotes
Mississauga
MarinersFanatik wrote: Yeah, the other thing here is that you have no right to hold his money hostage (which by my math, his half looks to be ~$350,000 before fees and taxes) for your own benefit. Maybe he's using some of the money on drugs, but maybe he's also going to put some of the money to good use. None of that matters. At the end of the day, it's his money and he wants to use it now rather than wait until he's 65.

Don't be a scumbag and do the right thing.
The OP is not being a scumbag - in fact, he's doing exactly what he said and agreed he would do with his brother: invest the money for retirement. It's the brother who has course-corrected and is putting the OP in an awkward situation.

Of course, all of this can and should have been considered at the outset - and a legal agreement should have been drawn up to account for such situations. The fact they didn't do that is absolute insanity.

OP would have every right in his situation to say "actually, I don't want to sell and I don't want to buy you out - if you want out you can sell your share to someone else". Just because the brother has a coke problem and wants to go on a bender doesn't mean the OP needs to bendover backwards to accommodate him. This was clearly defined as a retirement approach. If the OP's brother did this with his RRSPs, there would be massive penalties for liquidating.
4chan melts your brain.

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