Fitness and Nutrition

Lat Pull Down Machine (optional rowing)

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flaris wrote: Well you gotta pick one or the other. To get more muscular you eat on a caloric excess while lifting. Getting toned is just a matter of low body fat which you will achieve by losing weight or eating on a deficit.

I can lift much more with a BB bench compared to a DB bench and it allows me to setup better with leg drive, again allowing me to lift more weight. At the end of the day, the me that lifts heavier weight is going to be bigger and stronger than the me that doesn't lift as much.
You're right about muscular vs toned. I guess more muscular is what I want.
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hdave wrote: ditch the lat pulldown machine for home.
so much money, takes up too much space, all for something you can outgrow so easily.
i personally havent touched a lat pulldown machine in so many years, and i've got one of the strongest backs at my gym.

stick to pullups and chinups.

here's a progression routine that will work almost guaranteed:
you'll do these once every other day (sets x reps)
1x1 (start)
2x1
3x1
4x1 (week 2)
5x1
1x2
2x2 (week 3)
3x2
4x2
5x2 (week 4)
etc...


you'll be able to do sets of 5 in a few months.
you don't have to follow mine, because mine starts off too easy (for you) and progresses way too slowly.

but i hope you get the idea that through correctly planned progression your strength will increase.
if you google it, you'll find much better and more realistic progression paths for pullups with set instructions if you fail at any point.

good luck.

btw, i'm up to doing 5x5 with an extra 45lbs hanging off me super easily.
all thanks to super simple progression methods.
So I tried your suggestion and 6 weeks later I can still only do the same reps as I did before. What am I doing wrong?
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eonibm wrote: So I tried your suggestion and 6 weeks later I can still only do the same reps as I did before. What am I doing wrong?
Insufficient rest/recovery is one of the only things I can think of... Unless you gained a lot of fat over the past 6 weeks which I doubt.
Also, might be that your progression is too aggressive [possible,] or you started off too close to what you can currently do [most likely]

What amount of sets/reps did you start with? And what progression did you use?

I scanned through your posts and see that you can do 4-5 pull ups.
Is that dead hang or partial reps?
Also, do you go all the way up?

If partial, are you able to do at least 1 dead hang pull up and go all the way up?
If you can record yourself and post, I can take a look and see if your pull up itself has any problems.
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May 17, 2004
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eonibm wrote:
So I tried your suggestion and 6 weeks later I can still only do the same reps as I did before. What am I doing wrong?
hdave wrote: Insufficient rest/recovery is one of the only things I can think of... Unless you gained a lot of fat over the past 6 weeks which I doubt.
Also, might be that your progression is too aggressive [possible,] or you started off too close to what you can currently do [most likely]

What amount of sets/reps did you start with? And what progression did you use?

I scanned through your posts and see that you can do 4-5 pull ups.
Is that dead hang or partial reps?
Also, do you go all the way up?

If partial, are you able to do at least 1 dead hang pull up and go all the way up?
If you can record yourself and post, I can take a look and see if your pull up itself has any problems.
If you're already able to do 4-5 reps, try a technique called "Greasing the Groove".
Do submaximal reps frequently throughout the day every day. Add a rep every few weeks.

In your case, that would be 2 or 3 rep sets. Never go to failure. If you're feeling tired at the end of a set, you're doing too many. Do that as frequently as possible throughout the day. This is the easiest way to increase muscular endurance for bodyweight exercises. Every few weeks you can test your maximal reps. There shouldn't be any significant plateau until you can do 20 in a max effort set (which is NOT what you're doing during training).
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Yes!!!
Greasing the groove! that's the simple progression pullup routine i couldn't think of earlier!

(You gotta be strong enough to do a few good pullups though, the whole idea is that it is sub maximal where you can easily do at least one without needing much 'recovery' from it.)


bdckr wrote: If you're already able to do 4-5 reps, try a technique called "Greasing the Groove".
Do submaximal reps frequently throughout the day every day. Add a rep every few weeks.

In your case, that would be 2 or 3 rep sets. Never go to failure. If you're feeling tired at the end of a set, you're doing too many. Do that as frequently as possible throughout the day. This is the easiest way to increase muscular endurance for bodyweight exercises. Every few weeks you can test your maximal reps. There shouldn't be any significant plateau until you can do 20 in a max effort set (which is NOT what you're doing during training).
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Another vote for Pavel's Grease th Groove. You don't have to be strong enough to do pull-ups though. If one can't manage reps yet, it's fine to grease the groove with assisted chin ups or pull-ups. I usually recommend people start with chin ups, then try a neutral grip, and eventually pulls ups. Also, make sure you're properly moving the scaps during the movement. If starting from a dead hang, first try for a 'scap pullup' and then transition into the full ROM. So start with depressing and retracting the scras first (you will physically move when going from dead hang to engaged scaps that are 'ready' for a pull-up), and NOT bending at the elbow first

Once you can do the scap depression/retraction consistently, it won't feel like a two part movement and it'll be one fluid motion starting with scap depression p/retraction and then going into elbow flexion.

I'd focus on better reps instead of more reps, tbh.
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amz155 wrote: I'd focus on better reps instead of more reps, tbh.
Either way works.
It's just as easy to build up to target reps first and then refine form as it is to try to keep form good before building up reps.
If you've got any kind of positional and body awareness, it's probably easier to build up reps first. It gives you more time on the bar to get a feel for pulling yourself up, and it gives more time holding up your bodyweight to develop grip strength.
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bdckr wrote: Either way works.
It's just as easy to build up to target reps first and then refine form as it is to try to keep form good before building up reps.
If you've got any kind of positional and body awareness, it's probably easier to build up reps first. It gives you more time on the bar to get a feel for pulling yourself up, and it gives more time holding up your bodyweight to develop grip strength.
In my experience, most people don't use the right form/cues when learning how to do pull-ups. Whether it's using too much momentum or their lower body flopping around like a fish, the right muscles not working and engaged. Then they just try and add bad reps on top of bad reps....and then wonder why they stall for ages. IMO it's better to get the movement right and build on that rather than working on more reps and then needing to unlearn poor movement patterns, and reduce reps in exchange for doing proper pull-ups.

Of course, more than one way to skin a cat.
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amz155 wrote: In my experience, most people don't use the right form/cues when learning how to do pull-ups. Whether it's using too much momentum or their lower body flopping around like a fish, the right muscles not working and engaged. Then they just try and add bad reps on top of bad reps....and then wonder why they stall for ages. IMO it's better to get the movement right and build on that rather than working on more reps and then needing to unlearn poor movement patterns, and reduce reps in exchange for doing proper pull-ups.

Of course, more than one way to skin a cat.
My experience has been different. In training my son (when he was 12) to 10 reps from not being able to do one, he started with getting up any way that he could.

Initially that started with jumping up and just dropping back down for one.
Then he just started adding reps.
Once he hit 8, we stopped increasing reps and focused on making adjustments to each rep.
First it was no jumping.
Next was dropping down to 90 deg elbow flexion on each rep.
Then below 90.
Last was no kipping.
After he hit 8 clean reps, then he pushed to 10 clean reps.

The problem is that people make it more complicated than it needs to be. What you call "bad form" one method of assistance. The key is knowing that it is assistance, and that the goal should be to eventually do it without assistance. Staying at one rep until getting "good form" is unnecessarily frustrating for the trainee who wants to see some progress.

Absent a physical disability, any healthy adult weighing 300 lbs or less should be able to train for at least one pull-up. It's just a matter of time and consistency.
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Thanks everyone. I'll try the recommendations. I have no problem doing 4 reps, but the 5th is really hard and hasn't gotten better.

I read an article years ago that said that working out when you are going through puberty is like taking steroids because of what is happening with your body in producing hormones. Does anyone know anything about this? I am through puberty btw, lol.
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eonibm wrote: Thanks everyone. I'll try the recommendations. I have no problem doing 4 reps, but the 5th is really hard and hasn't gotten better.

I read an article years ago that said that working out when you are going through puberty is like taking steroids because of what is happening with your body in producing hormones. Does anyone know anything about this? I am through puberty btw, lol.
I wouldn't say it's like taking steroids, because steroids (when used to build muscle) are often taken at supraphysiological levels. I think test levels top out in dudes in the upper teens, maybe up to 20 years old iirc. But even then, there's a huge range of what's considered normal...so 'higher' in late teens may still not be that high in some, kwim? I'm talking ranges from like 300-1000 (ish, very ballpark guess) when they top out before they start to decline naturally.

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