Real Estate

Locked: Is this legal??

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  • Aug 8th, 2021 12:05 pm
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[OP]
Newbie
Dec 8, 2020
92 posts
18 upvotes

Is this legal??

I requested a copy of my mortgage documents because I want to see where they come up with the mortgage penalty and if i signed an agreement to that. That is because it is not on my document!

This is what they sent me…
So basically my documents will not have the proper information and they can put whatever they want on their copy. How is this even legal if there is no Penalty break consequence on my paperwork? But it is on theirs?
The papers I signed do not have the penalty break.
Envision bank is doing this.
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Deal Addict
Jan 26, 2016
1872 posts
1784 upvotes
Toronto, ON
lol
Member
Feb 5, 2015
379 posts
462 upvotes
Toronto
What's not legal?
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Dec 3, 2004
5749 posts
5322 upvotes
Edmonton
What's unreasonable about the bank wanting $50 to retrieve a document? Most financial institutions charge fees for all kinds of things. Hell, and NSF charge is $50 these days. Mortgage companies don't scan every single mortgage document and put it onto a computer. It costs money to have someone go down, retrieve the document and scan it for you. Other banking members shouldn't pay for that on your behalf. I lost some mortgage related documents once and the lawyer charged me like $200 to obtain them back. So $50 isn't unreasonable.
[OP]
Newbie
Dec 8, 2020
92 posts
18 upvotes
No. What I’m saying is the contract that I signed does not have The mortgage pre-payment clause. It’s left open. In Fact there is nothing on my contact that says anything.
Sr. Member
Jun 18, 2020
986 posts
865 upvotes
So your contract copy says nothing?

3 mos or ird is standard stuff, regardless of whether it's shown on yours or not...if it's not, what exactly does it say?
Member
May 2, 2020
207 posts
329 upvotes
Toronto
I don’t get it

They clearly state what the penalty is….

The penalty changes after each payment you make, there’s no way for them to have an actual number in firm writing on your mortgage papers…..

Why don’t you just call them and ask them what your penalty would be?
Blessed are the flexible, for they shall never be bent out of shape
Deal Fanatic
Nov 22, 2015
5860 posts
5380 upvotes
Dejavudiva wrote: I requested a copy of my mortgage documents because I want to see where they come up with the mortgage penalty and if i signed an agreement to that. That is because it is not on my document!

This is what they sent me…
So basically my documents will not have the proper information and they can put whatever they want on their copy. How is this even legal if there is no Penalty break consequence on my paperwork? But it is on theirs?
The papers I signed do not have the penalty break.
Envision bank is doing this.
What seems to be the problem? Looks legit... Are you confused about the amount of the penalty?

The penalty amount is never on the mortgage documents... They simply provide the formulas they use to calculate it, which is pretty standard and can probably be found online.
Sr. Member
May 3, 2013
675 posts
272 upvotes
Toronto
The penalty calc details should be outlined in the contract. All other fees should also be outlined in the contract including the retrieval from storage fee, if it is not, I would dispute it.
[OP]
Newbie
Dec 8, 2020
92 posts
18 upvotes
you think I didn’t try? I just got it today. It took many phone calls and emails. They did not want to give it to me. I finally said you can’t give someone a bill these days without people wanting to know what they’re paying for.
[OP]
Newbie
Dec 8, 2020
92 posts
18 upvotes
realtorhome wrote: The penalty calc details should be outlined in the contract. All other fees should also be outlined in the contract including the retrieval from storage fee, if it is not, I would dispute it.
Exactly which it’s not.
[OP]
Newbie
Dec 8, 2020
92 posts
18 upvotes
navyblue wrote: i thought the OP sounded familiar i know why; other threads

help-im-3-44-envision-need-out-2475911/

my-penalty-correct-i-want-out-2464537/
I don’t understand.. are you stalking. No reason for my question to be singled out. As like others red flag deals have always been helpful and I always gotten responses in my messages and I’m currently getting assistance as I speak.
I’ve seen many people ask questions on different forums to get an answer.
Sr. Member
Jun 18, 2020
986 posts
865 upvotes
Dejavudiva wrote: I don’t understand.. are you stalking. No reason for my question to be singled out. As like others red flag deals have always been helpful and I always gotten responses in my messages and I’m currently getting assistance as I speak.
I’ve seen many people ask questions on different forums to get an answer.
Your question is singled out because you keep repeating it. And getting the same answer. It's the answer you have a problem with.

Again, I ask, what DOES it say on your contract? We can't help if we don't know what they have hidden from you.

If you think your contract should have some dollar figure cited, like $11293, for the IRD, then you are correct...You don't understand. Your best advice going forward is don't sign things you don't understand.
[OP]
Newbie
Dec 8, 2020
92 posts
18 upvotes
No it should not have a dollar figure. But it should have a form of a calculation. There is a link that you can go to which will show all the penalty prepayment calculations for banks online. And for the ones that don’t have it because they hide it, you have to contact the branch.
This was done repeatedly as I stated by phone and via email, and they did not want to give it to me. After three months it is calculated by IRD with most banks. But each bank is different on how this is declared.
It’s no different if I go to a restaurant and I am giving a bill with an amount. But there is no calculations on how they came up with it.
I think it’s sad that some banks try to hide this.
Definitely lesson learned here.
My choice is to leave envision. Im currently speaking to my accountant to do so with the “ “override” Ive seen on here.
Sr. Member
Jun 18, 2020
986 posts
865 upvotes
Dejavudiva wrote: After three months it is calculated by IRD with most banks.

I don't think you understand how IRD works, or else you've explained it in this sentence wrong. There is no "after 3 months" aspect to it.

IRD is standard way of doing this, the formula might be slightly diff at diff lenders but it's basically the same result, it gives a penalty that is worse if rates have fallen (which they have).

The penalty with the vast majority of lenders is the IRD or 3 months interest, WHICHEVER IS HGHER.

The lender gets to choose, and will chose the one that makes them more and thus costs you more.

If by overide, you mean the blend and extend,, i'd be careful. You could end up stuck in a new term and NOT be able to get out penalty free. If you don't understand how it works, it can result in you still being locked in. Most lendershave closed the loophole FYI.
Jr. Member
Jun 6, 2017
165 posts
256 upvotes
Dejavudiva wrote: you think I didn’t try? I just got it today. It took many phone calls and emails. They did not want to give it to me. I finally said you can’t give someone a bill these days without people wanting to know what they’re paying for.
I think you may be confusing two different things. There is the typical "mortgage contract" which is fairly boiler plate and reads like a legal contract and then there is the agreement with the bank. I've been through 3 banks/refinances now and the "mortgage contract" does not contain the IRD details but the agreement signed with the bank does, the mortgage contract also doesn't mention mortgage term or interest rate as you don't need to renew this every X years otherwise you would have to pay legal fees. If they included the IRD in the mortgage contract then you would have to pay legal fees to change it upon renewal so they keep these broad.

In all cases i was given signed copies of BOTH agreements and a lesson learned would be to make sure you keep both. If you truly believe that you never signed such an agreement then this is a massive oversight on the banks part (and yours) and perhaps something you could fight. First step would be to "invest" the $50 fee and see if they produce a document you signed. This also means you don't have anything signed in writing guaranteeing the terms not covered in the "mortgage contract".

I guess it comes down to specifically what documents are you referring to that you signed? Do you have one that says the interest rate, term, payment schedule from the bank but not IRD?
Moderator
User avatar
Sep 30, 2001
28803 posts
8003 upvotes
Toronto
op: please use your existing thread: help-im-3-44-envision-need-out-2475911/
We're all in this together. Be kind and civil with one another

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