Real Estate

Lower your Listing/Selling Fees - Use Flat Rate MLS

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May 18, 2008
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eonibm wrote:
May 25th, 2014 2:00 pm
As for your non-refundable retainer it's an interesting idea as I imagine there are people who are into real-estate porn and engage agents simply because they want to be shown houses, and sometimes be picked up and driven to them and then dropped off at home again. It's unfair to waste an agent's time like that if you have no intention of buying a home at all no matter what. Of course, the majority of agents won't ask for a non-refundable + cash-back retainer so, as you say, it won't work in real life because of that competition.

I am curious, cost of 'time' aside, what would you estimate the costs, ie professional photos, floorplans, board fees as you mentioned, are for a typical listing? - costs which you have to eat of course if the property does not sell.
I've gotten to the point in my career that there is no way I am picking up a buyer (unless they cannot drive because of a health issues). Picking up a buyer is a disaster in terms of time management.

Professional photos & floor plans = $200
Board MLS® Upload Fee = $50
My time = variable depending on listing/client.

The problem is all the fixed expenses and intangibles. Monthly brokerage desk fee ($150), monthly board fee ($120), brokerage transaction fee ($250).....then the intangibles (stolen signs, gas, strata documents, etc.)

Last year I grossed a lot of money but $155,000 cash back to my buyers plus $83,000 in expenses did bring the gross down substantially. This year I'll be closer to $200,000 cash back and $100,000 in expenses (somehow things just add up).

At the end of the day I am not complaining. I am 28 years old and I own three cash positive rental condos and I am in the middle of building a custom 4,500 sq/ft house. There is a lot of money to be made in real estate if you are willing to think outside of the box and hustle. I don't think there has been a week since the New Year that I've worked less than 70 hours. It isn't hard work (driving around, showing houses, meeting inspectors), but if you like to go camping or away once a month it doesn't work too well when you have the amount of buyers and listings I do. I take a 30 day vacation every second year in August, the rest of the time it’s literally 7 days a week and at least 10 hours a day. I am hoping by 35 I can step back and try to somehow take Sundays off. As I type this on a Sunday I am waiting for clients to get to my office to write up an offer.
Marko Juras, REALTOR® & Associate Broker @ Fair Realty, Victoria, BC - "I believe in a competitive marketplace and real estate commissions should be no exception."
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Captain_Ron5 wrote:
May 25th, 2014 2:28 pm
I've gotten to the point in my career that there is no way I am picking up a buyer (unless they cannot drive because of a health issues). Picking up a buyer is a disaster in terms of time management.

Professional photos & floor plans = $200
Board MLS® Upload Fee = $50
My time = variable depending on listing/client.

The problem is all the fixed expenses and intangibles. Monthly brokerage desk fee ($150), monthly board fee ($120), brokerage transaction fee ($250).....then the intangibles (stolen signs, gas, strata documents, etc.)

Last year I grossed a lot of money but $155,000 cash back to my buyers plus $83,000 in expenses did bring the gross down substantially. This year I'll be closer to $200,000 cash back and $100,000 in expenses (somehow things just add up).

At the end of the day I am not complaining. I am 28 years old and I own three cash positive rental condos and I am in the middle of building a custom 4,500 sq/ft house. There is a lot of money to be made in real estate if you are willing to think outside of the box and hustle. I don't think there has been a week since the New Year that I've worked less than 70 hours. It isn't hard work (driving around, showing houses, meeting inspectors), but if you like to go camping or away once a month it doesn't work too well when you have the amount of buyers and listings I do. I take a 30 day vacation every second year in August, the rest of the time it’s literally 7 days a week and at least 10 hours a day. I am hoping by 35 I can step back and try to somehow take Sundays off. As I type this on a Sunday I am waiting for clients to get to my office to write up an offer.
Good man and good information. Way more useful than the realtors here that keep babbling about how they deserve the full 2.5% commissions for listing because they do "a lot of work".
[OP]
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Luckyinfil wrote:
May 25th, 2014 2:40 pm
Good man and good information. Way more useful than the realtors here that keep babbling about how they deserve the full 2.5% commissions for listing because they do "a lot of work".
+1 sure. Finally someone who actually isn't embarrassed to answer questions or ashamed about what the work actually entails.

Captain-Ron5 - You sure are doing well for yourself at your age and I agree it's a lot of work and hustling, but not hard work. Just very time consuming and probably at times exasperating with some of the clients out there. And, no, you can't just take off to go on a vacation any time you want. I bet that 30 day vacation every second year takes a lot of planning.

Three more questions if you don't mind. You've been so good about answering the previous ones so completely.

1. For the Flat Rate listing with the mere posting on MLS does the client handle the offers themselves?

2. How exactly does the 'co-operating commission' work on Full Service & Flat Fee. If you are representing the seller on Full Service you are charging 1% for that service and then the buyer's agent gets 1.5% I take it? How do you avoid buyer's agents not wanting to show the house you list because the commission is not higher? Maybe it is standard in Victoria to only give 1.5% to the buyer's agent but here in Toronto the standard appears to be it is 2.5%. I myself was a 'victim' of not being shown a house because the agent did not want to show it to me. I didn't even know about it but by accident found it myself (it had been on the market for 3 mos already) and buying it. With the Flat Fee I take it the client could decide to pay 2%, 2.5%, 1.5% or whatever they wanted to the buyers' agent?

3. What is your thought on how worthwhile open houses are?
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2007
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Very informative post. I did something similar 11 yrs ago when I sold my house in Vancouver. While I was never a realtor, I do have some indirect experience in the business. An old saying used to be that 90% of your job is done as soon as you get a listing.

Real estate market and mentality are currently quite different between Toronto and Vancouver.

eonibm wrote:
May 22nd, 2014 6:15 pm
I'll likely sell my home next year. I've sold other homes but that was over a decade ago and longer. This has prompted me to think about what a listing agent really does and whether it is worth the 2.5% they want as a commission. As far as I can see, they do the following tasks:

1. Do a comparative analysis and provide you with a suggested listing price.
But, any agent will do this for free because they want you to get your listing. I constantly get flyers, cards in the door and sometimes phone calls offering me this service for free. The data for comparable house prices is not public as the MLS retains a tight control over it (but the Competition Bureau is currently considering taking them to court over this lack of transparency). This info is one of the few things they have left that is not public but should be. Also, listing prices seem to have little to do with what houses sell for, especially these days. Also, zoocasa.com now provides what the sale prices is of homes. Also, remember, a listing agent has nothing to do with what a house sells for. That has more to do with not accepting offers until a certain date and time, the number of offers you get, what you sign the offer back at and the fact a buyer's agent is getting a commission. It's not like the seller's agent jumps up and down yelling "Please bid more! Please bid more!". They have nothing to do with the price the offers come in at expect to communicate how in demand the house is, how many offers are on the table etc.

2. Suggest you stage your home. In this day and age this is an obvious thing you should do before listing your home. Everyone knows that. You pay the staging fee anyway, not the agent. They do nothing but suggest it and there are many companies to choose from. (You can even get guidebooks on how to do it yourself).

3. Tell their own clients about the home hoping for a double-ended deal (ie double the commission as they’d be representing the buyer and seller or a bit less if it is written into the listing contract that they get less if they double-end the deal).

4. Take pictures of the home after staging for the brochure, website and MLS listing. You can do this yourself or pay a couple hundred bucks to someone else to do it and get way better pictures than any agent can provide.

5. Write the MLS listing. Anyone with half a brain can write those flowery write-ups that agents do to make the home sound better than it really is. You can do just as well hiring a professional writer to write that if need be. Or, ask a few prospective agents to do a write-up and tell them that is part of your decision-making process on whom to choose or even whether to choose to have an agent represent you. You are not forcing them to do it and it's not your fault if you don't choose one of them as you gave them full disclosure. There - no guilt feelings. Also, it’s the walk through and price that sells the home, not a flowery write-up. That just gets them in the home but doesn’t sell it once the reality is revealed.

6. Prepare a brochure. Again, you could pay someone a couple hundred bucks to do an incredible brochure with gorgeous pictures printed on heavy high quality paper stock, better than any agent would provide you with. And, anyway, the brochure doesn't sell the house, the walk-through and price do.

7. Create a separate web-site for your property. Most agents don't do this, but merely post you on their website. Again, couple hundred bucks and you can have your own website if you want.

8. List the property on MLS. Again, a very routine process which uses the information you've already gathered in the steps above. Not rocket science and can be done for a flat fee now for under $1,000.

9. List the property on Craigslist etc. Hmm, a grade 6 student could do this and it’s free for anyone to do. Another routine process using the information above.

10. Hold Open Houses. It's a dirty little secret that Open Houses are for the agents' benefit, not the vendors. Agents hold them in order to give themselves exposure and to find clients who don’t have an agent yet so that they can then hopefully then represent them. Why do you think you are required to give personal data (phone numbers, etc) and sign in when viewing a home. Because they think you might steel a chatchka? Noooo. They wouldn't know if you took it anyway as agents don't follow you around the home. Also, it's to show the client how many people came through the home and give them a false sense that the property is being 'marketed'. Yes it does happen the odd time that someone buys a house because of seeing it at an open house, but few people buy a house because they were just driving around not intending to buy a home but then just happened to be walking or driving by, see a home, walk in and then decide to buy. Anyone who wants to buy a home will go see it with an agent and any agent worth his or her salt will not show a home during an open house. They will do it privately without a bunch of gawkers and tire-kickers around. The only aspect of an Open House that is worth doing at all is an Agent's Open House where real estate agents can come by on one or two different occasions to see the home so they can then determine its suitability for their clients and talk to their clients about it.

11. Provide access to the home. This use to be a big deal but now with lockboxes the listing agent doesn't have to be available to open the door so that buyer's agents can show their clients the home.

12. Accepting offers not before a certain date/time to created a bidding war and then negotiating the sale. This is an aspect which some people think would be daunting to handle themselves but is it really? Pick a date and time to accept offers. Then accept them then. There's your bidding war.

As for the rest of the 'negotiation' process once the offers are in it's basically just signing back the offer at different prices. That sure ain't rocket science. Pick a price higher than was offered which you are comfortable with and sign it back. Duh. These are not the days of yore where buyers wanted all kinds of conditions, mortgages negotiated, etc. Now people get their own financing and pay cash. Your real estate lawyer can give you the very short list of what is required in the contract, what to look out for, etc. but better still have him there to read the offers with you. They have a lot more expertise about real estate contracts than your agent would anyway. Basically,the most common condition(s) may be (I say 'may' as these are not always included) conditional on financing (not as common now and makes your offer much less competitive) and conditional on inspection (also sometimes not included these days, especially if your house is a gut-job type). Some buyers now don’t even put these clauses in so that their offer looks a bit better than the rest, even at the same price as the rest. Also, it's important to make sure you have anything that is not to be included with the home to be listed in the offer.

Negotiating comes down to the following 'do loop':

Do until offer accepted:
1. Get offer;
2. Review and accept or sign back at a higher price (maybe change a condition);
3. Go to 1.

So, let's summarize:

Item 1 is free from any agent. Zoocasa can give you similar info.

Items 2-11 are what agents call creating their 'marketing plan' for your home. But, please, it’s not all the complicated. They make it sound all complicated and sophisticated involving a lot of work but as you can see when you break down the individual tasks it's really not much that anyone couldn't just do themselves. I have enumerated items 2-11 to various agents that have asked to be my listing agent when I sell my home and have asked them to tell me exactly what the other aspects of their 'marketing plan' is other than items 2-11 and they all look at me without saying anything and then go "well, er, um," and stumble and don't really have any answer. No surprise there!

I know that there could be some legal issues with respect to a property that an agent could discover and that need to be disclosed but who do you think they might be using to find that out? A lawyer? Of course! One you could pay yourself anyway.

Now I may have missed one or two things in my 'marketing plan' so if anyone has anything to add, let me know and I will add it to my plan. And, of course if any agents are reading this feel free to comment on those other elusive tasks you perform.

So, are items 1-11 worth 2.5% of your home value? For a million-dollar property that's $25,000. You could do it all for about $2,000 or less even if you paid people to do all of the individual items instead of doing them yourself. And, you have an MLS listing to boot and agents will still be clamouring to sell your home because they are still getting their cut and maybe even more than normal. Yet you are paying less. Now, is it worth paying a 2-3% commission to the buyer's agent? Probably since agents simply won't show houses unless it feathers their nest enough even if it is the best thing for their client. You could go with a totally private listing that is not on MLS but you would not get the same exposure and less exposure means lower demand for your home and likely a lower price. Would that absolutely happen? Not necessarily but it makes it more likely.

My advice to people who want to list a home:

Use a flat-fee real estate agency to list your home on MLS. Get get comparative data to use to help determine what to list at. Pay them or others to do the simple items 2-11. Many already include some of those services in the flat fee.

Offer 2-2.5 % (including HST) to the buyer’s agent so they won’t shun your home. No agent is going to not show your home because it is a flat-rate listing. They couldn’t care less about what the listing agent is getting for the sale. They are out for themselves and themselves only. Hell, offer 3.0% (including HST) which is way less than the combined 4-5%+ you’d pay if both the buyer’s and sellers agent were getting a commission and every agent would come out of the woodwork to show your home, even to the exclusion of other homes that might be as suitable or even more suitable for the client. Oh, I am being cynical here am I? Not at all. I’ve seen it happen and have had agents tell me stories about it happening. The house I am in right now happens to be one I found on my own even though it had been listed for a couple months and was within the price range and geographical area I told her I was interested in. The agent was only showing me higher-priced homes but never showed me this one. Funny that. ;)

I see this as the only way to counter the fact that buyers + sellers agents together want to get paid double what they were a mere 7-8 years ago for selling a home. Tell me, has anyone else's wages double in such a short time? This is a simple and effective way to lower your selling costs.

Now before all you real estate agents get all huffy and puffy about my post, I am not saying you are ALL bad people. There are some very good agents out there but one thing that motivates all people is money and everyone operates in a way such that they further their own economic interest. Real estate agents are no different.
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2007
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Many years ago, one of the top realtors in Greater Vancouver Area (Bob Rennie) was quoted saying something to the effect that only friends and family pay regular commissions. He had to backtrack a bit on that a few days later, no doubt from pressure from realtor's association and other realtors.
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May 18, 2008
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Victoria
eonibm wrote:
May 25th, 2014 3:58 pm
+1 sure. Finally someone who actually isn't embarrassed to answer questions or ashamed about what the work actually entails.

Captain-Ron5 - You sure are doing well for yourself at your age and I agree it's a lot of work and hustling, but not hard work. Just very time consuming and probably at times exasperating with some of the clients out there. And, no, you can't just take off to go on a vacation any time you want. I bet that 30 day vacation every second year takes a lot of planning.

Three more questions if you don't mind. You've been so good about answering the previous ones so completely.

1. For the Flat Rate listing with the mere posting on MLS does the client handle the offers themselves?

2. How exactly does the 'co-operating commission' work on Full Service & Flat Fee. If you are representing the seller on Full Service you are charging 1% for that service and then the buyer's agent gets 1.5% I take it? How do you avoid buyer's agents not wanting to show the house you list because the commission is not higher? Maybe it is standard in Victoria to only give 1.5% to the buyer's agent but here in Toronto the standard appears to be it is 2.5%. I myself was a 'victim' of not being shown a house because the agent did not want to show it to me. I didn't even know about it but by accident found it myself (it had been on the market for 3 mos already) and buying it. With the Flat Fee I take it the client could decide to pay 2%, 2.5%, 1.5% or whatever they wanted to the buyers' agent?

3. What is your thought on how worthwhile open houses are?
1. Correct, arranging showings, negotiations, dealing with inspection problems, etc. all responsibility of the seller. Seller also decides what they want to offer as a cooperating commission. Could be $1 or it could be 3%.

2. Correct, I offer a 1.5% cooperating commission with my full service listings. A cooperating commission one might see in Victoria is 3.0%100k+1.5%balance so it is a $1,500 dollar difference. Having sold 38 listings last year I think 1.5% in this market doesn't affect the chances of a sale, in my opinion (others will disagree). In Toronto if one may see 2.5% cooperating commission on a frequent basis, 1.5% would be a bit of a spread. ($6,000 on a 600k home).

3. Open houses are a joke. Approximately 2% of buyers find a home at an open house (according to annual surveys we've done with the Victoria Real Estate Board). Probably half of that 2% would have booked a private showing if it were not for the open house. The half of the 2% that find it at an open house and wouldn't have booked a private showing probably find the home at the first open house for the property. Conclusion, first open house is relatively useless with a 1% chance of anything happening. Second or third open house is a completely useless in terms of actually selling the property; however, it may have benefits for the REALTOR®. I only do open houses if the seller asks me to, otherwise I don't do them (too busy showing property to buyers on the weekend).
Marko Juras, REALTOR® & Associate Broker @ Fair Realty, Victoria, BC - "I believe in a competitive marketplace and real estate commissions should be no exception."
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Speedy1 wrote:
May 25th, 2014 4:47 pm
Many years ago, one of the top realtors in Greater Vancouver Area (Bob Rennie) was quoted saying something to the effect that only friends and family pay regular commissions. He had to backtrack a bit on that a few days later, no doubt from pressure from realtor's association and other realtors.
A real estate association would never comment on a commission structure.
Marko Juras, REALTOR® & Associate Broker @ Fair Realty, Victoria, BC - "I believe in a competitive marketplace and real estate commissions should be no exception."
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2007
4521 posts
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Yes, they would never do it publicly or directly. They would be in deep doo doo if they did that.
Captain_Ron5 wrote:
May 25th, 2014 4:49 pm
A real estate association would never comment on a commission structure.
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2007
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I think that's quite rare. In most cases (80%-90%), realtors would prefer a sure quick commission over waiting for a higher offer and getting a slightly higher commission. For instance, difference in commission between $500k vs $550k or $1 million vs $1.1 million is minimal.

Likely reason for realtor to do that could be s/he wanted opportunity to double end the deal.
leoben wrote:
May 22nd, 2014 11:03 pm
i know of someone who got a decent offer in a buyer's market, whose agent insisted he reject the offer, then got no offers for months and could not sell the place. doesn't always work out.
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2007
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Zoocasa will email you Toronto excellent sale price info everyday. I have been contacting them for past 3 months to see when they would offer the same info for Vancouver area. In fact, I just contacted them on Friday about this. They are working on it but still no definitive date when it will be available. Info from the tax agency (updated once or twice a year??) is not timely at all though. Market turns on a dime so it's very important to get up to date info.
dealguy2 wrote:
May 22nd, 2014 11:36 pm
The hardest part is price discovery. Sure many agents will flash around numbers to get your attention and your listing but will they actually spend the time and pull all comparables? Probably not unless they are really sure you're not just shopping agents.

In Victoria there is a parallel system to the stupid and useless realtor.ca website called pcs and vreb matrix that allows you to search for and track prices. If there's anything similar in Toronto I'd get access to it because it's very useful for price discovery purposes. In BC you can also access sales reported to the property tax agency which is highly useful to capture private sales. You have to watch the tax data though because some of the transactions are obvious deals between relatives where the prices are crazy low.
[OP]
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Aug 2, 2010
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Here 'n There
Captain_Ron5: Why aren't you like most of the other agents that want to charge more, not give cash back and talk with a forked tongue? You are refreshingly transparent about what you do and how you do it. Is it that you are actually making more income than you would if you charged the higher rates that other agents do?

Also, is the '30 minutes of homework and thought into selling or buying a house' that you mentioned originally refer to the choosing of the right agent or in terms of doing some of the work themselves and using your flat rate listing service? Because, if they are using your Full Service option I would think other than choosing you they don't have to put much thought into it as they are paying you to do all of the work.
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2007
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Of course it takes a realtor 30 seconds to get that info. I think you are missing the point of that post and this entire thread.
Luckyinfil wrote:
May 23rd, 2014 12:03 am
No it's not. All a realtor would do is to go into MLS, filter previously solds in the same area with the same bedrooms and print/email it to you. Takes all of 30 seconds.
[OP]
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Aug 2, 2010
14255 posts
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Here 'n There
Speedy1 wrote:
May 25th, 2014 5:21 pm
Zoocasa will email you Toronto excellent sale price info everyday. I have been contacting them for past 3 months to see when they would offer the same info for Vancouver area. In fact, I just contacted them on Friday about this. They are working on it but still no definitive date when it will be available. Info from the tax agency (updated once or twice a year??) is not timely at all though. Market turns on a dime so it's very important to get up to date info.
Yes, I get a Zoocasa email every day. It's interesting to see what properties in Toronto are selling at and after getting it for a year now I am getting an idea of what properties should be listed at. However, some of the prices are beyond belief (over $1M for a fixer upper/gut job on a 20ft lot with no parking close to downtown?) and often comparables even in the last year have no bearing on how much higher a property will sell for.

Another website I read every day is Guava. This website has an interactive map of Toronto that you can zoom in on and it shows the price of properties and any price drops. It is better than anything MLS produces.

Another one is The Mash. Again, Toronto-based. It is a real estate 'gossip' website that posts pictures and descriptions of homes when they are listed with some absolutely hilarious writing and people can post comments. When prices go down (sometimes they even go up) updates are provided. I love reading it.

Too bad they don't have Zoocasa, Guava & The Mash for every city.
Deal Addict
Jun 29, 2007
4521 posts
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That's a new one I have heard/read about. Link to the videos please??

Anybody see the recent 20/20 story?

Amazing thing is the realtors are still working as realtors. In fact the guy moved over to Remax. You know what they say about Remax realtors.

http://abcnews.go.com/Lifestyle/seller- ... d=23550492

Luckyinfil wrote:
May 23rd, 2014 12:13 am
I saw some videos where the real estate agent sleeps with a client to get a higher offer. Perhaps that may be a value added service you can ask a realtor for.
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Victoria
eonibm wrote:
May 25th, 2014 5:23 pm
Captain_Ron5: Why aren't you like most of the other agents that want to charge more, not give cash back and talk with a forked tongue? You are refreshingly transparent about what you do and how you do it. Is it that you are actually making more income than you would if you charged the higher rates that other agents do?

Also, is the '30 minutes of homework and thought into selling or buying a house' that you mentioned originally refer to the choosing of the right agent or in terms of doing some of the work themselves and using your flat rate listing service? Because, if they are using your Full Service option I would think other than choosing you they don't have to put much thought into it as they are paying you to do all of the work.
My business model gives me a massive competitive advantage in an industry where very few can say they have a tangible competitive advantage (everyone is the best negotiator, best at marketing, etc.) so yes I do make more than I would if I was charging higher rates.

I meant research and thought in terms of an overall picture. If you want full service go with full service where you get the most value. If you want flat fee listing go with the one that offers the most value. Understand the difference and assess whether you want to go full service or flat fee listing. I personally, don't push either one, it comes down to comfort level of the seller.

Same with choosing a buyer's agent. A lot of my clients will come to me along the lines of "We told our best friends that you gave us $5,000 cash back on our purchase but they have a friend from highschool and decided to use her to help them buy a home," and the friend is not give a dollar in terms of cash back.

The average non-redflagdeal Joe doesn't get it. They think that because their agent drives a BMW, dresses sharply, and advertises his or her face on the back of buses that it somehow contributes to the sale of the property.....it doesn't!

When I bought my 2012 Civic Si I read about 10 reviews online, I watched about 10 youtube videos posted by owners, I did my research on RFDs, etc., and when I went into the dealership I knew the colour I wanted, the best lease rate I could negotiate, etc. I knew the interior sucked due to all the hard plastic and every other single detail. I do my research when I make big purchases but most people don't.

It will be a long long time before the industry changes. The consumer uptake is not what I thought it would be. I've done extremely well personally but I haven't dented the local market as a whole.
Marko Juras, REALTOR® & Associate Broker @ Fair Realty, Victoria, BC - "I believe in a competitive marketplace and real estate commissions should be no exception."

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