Real Estate

Millennials are fleeing Canada's big cities as Big Government coddles boomers

  • Last Updated:
  • May 6th, 2021 6:41 pm
Member
Jun 27, 2007
316 posts
239 upvotes
California
Easy401rider wrote: not really non of my IT skilled friends move to use , one of them was invited to HQ in silicon valley, He went to visit the HQ and area looked at houses etc . but when he saw he house prices there (way more expensive than GTA) , he decided to stay in Canada . the social class is much more visible in US than Canada , he is a social liberal and he likes Canadian society more than south one.
This was true maybe in 2011...not in 2021. You can get a decent detached for 1.5 million in the Bay Area, with double to triple the pay of the GTA depending on your industry (tech, biotech, pharma). The inequalities do exist, but I've seen the same thing in the GTA especially as the affordable housing crisis increases (and people still love to talk about 'good school districts' in either place).
Sr. Member
Dec 25, 2019
937 posts
1306 upvotes
fr33style wrote: This was true maybe in 2011...not in 2021. You can get a decent detached for 1.5 million in the Bay Area, with double to triple the pay of the GTA depending on your industry (tech, biotech, pharma). The inequalities do exist, but I've seen the same thing in the GTA especially as the affordable housing crisis increases (and people still love to talk about 'good school districts' in either place).
My friend went there 3 years ago, and said price of the houses way more than GTA. He has been living in Toronto for 5 years, Company offered him same amount pretty much matched his salary here. For him the most important thing was the society, as i said the guy is social liberal and enjoys the feel of Canadian society plus he is into camping and likes the Canadian parks.
Member
Jun 27, 2007
316 posts
239 upvotes
California
Easy401rider wrote: My friend went there 3 years ago, and said price of the houses way more than GTA. He has been living in Toronto for 5 years, Company offered him same amount pretty much matched his salary here. For him the most important thing was the society, as i said the guy is social liberal and enjoys the feel of Canadian society plus he is into camping and likes the Canadian parks.
Well we have the anecdote from your friend and we have actual data from the GTA and the Bay Area:

Bay Area sales in March 2021
Single-family detached homes: $1,225,000
https://www.car.org/aboutus/mediacenter ... r2021sales

GTA in April 2021:
Detaches homes: $1,387,629
Semi-detached homes: $1,068,923
https://trreb.ca/files/market-stats/mar ... mw2104.pdf

The Bay Area is very socially liberal...and also has way more parks and camping than what's around the GTA. Not sure how these are strong reasons.
Sr. Member
Dec 25, 2019
937 posts
1306 upvotes
Househunter007 wrote: Maintenance fees are so high it’s like a second mortgage at that price range?

If your income is $100K, 5% down, PP $525K and condo fees are $600-700k your debt ratios are likely running right up against the max CMHC debt ratios allowed. This is assuming no other expenses (i.e. car payments).

Not sure these options are as “affordable” as you are trying to portray.

Edit - way too late!
One of my friend bought a 4 bedrooms condo townhouse in mississauga for $550k 3 months ago, he makes close to $100k, no debt one car put 50k downpayment. Bank gave him $550k easily with %1.5 interest. He did tell them main fee is $700. Bank told him they put max $400 for maintenance and asked him what's included in maintenance fees water, building insurance, cable, netflix, limitless internet,common areas, 1 special assessment which will end in 2 years included in maintenance fees. So only thing he would pay extra hydro and property tax. Bank approved the mortgage next day.

As far as i know banks gives u 5 times of ur income if u dont carry any debt, car payments and have a good credit score. Private lenders give even more with higher interest rate though.
Sr. Member
Dec 25, 2019
937 posts
1306 upvotes
fr33style wrote: Well we have the anecdote from your friend and we have actual data from the GTA and the Bay Area:

Bay Area sales in March 2021
Single-family detached homes: $1,225,000
https://www.car.org/aboutus/mediacenter ... r2021sales

GTA in April 2021:
Detaches homes: $1,387,629
Semi-detached homes: $1,068,923
https://trreb.ca/files/market-stats/mar ... mw2104.pdf

The Bay Area is very socially liberal...and also has way more parks and camping than what's around the GTA. Not sure how these are strong reasons.
I think Trump being in power made him think that way, also becoming Canadian citizen was more appealing to him than American. I don't know the bay area and their house prices, but he did say it was expensive to him 3 years ago. He just passed his citizenship test today actually and planning to stay in Canada since his baby girl is born here.
Deal Addict
Jul 1, 2006
1051 posts
964 upvotes
fr33style wrote: Well we have the anecdote from your friend and we have actual data from the GTA and the Bay Area:

Bay Area sales in March 2021
Single-family detached homes: $1,225,000
https://www.car.org/aboutus/mediacenter ... r2021sales

GTA in April 2021:
Detaches homes: $1,387,629
Semi-detached homes: $1,068,923
https://trreb.ca/files/market-stats/mar ... mw2104.pdf

The Bay Area is very socially liberal...and also has way more parks and camping than what's around the GTA. Not sure how these are strong reasons.
Interesting - thanks for sharing those links!

The Bay Area number looks super low, as back in 2015-2016 I had been unseriously considering a purchase in the South Bay (Santa Clara County), and even then finding anything passable for less than $1.6m was a stretch. So that summary number seemed super low for the Bay Area. Digging into the CAR data, what they consider the Bay Area goes a bit beyond what many might consider Bay Area proper. For those with jobs in tech or finance you generally mean an area around SF and Oakland, north to Marin and south to Santa Clara / San Jose.

Alameda $1,163,000
Marin $1,627,500
San Francisco $1,755,000
San Mateo $1,985,000
Santa Clara $1,600,000

And lets not talk about the $20k+ per year you'll be paying in property taxes because they only raise them when a house sells. Great if you've owned a place for a long time, but terrible if you are getting into the property market down there.
Deal Addict
Nov 13, 2013
4523 posts
3685 upvotes
Ottawa
Easy401rider wrote: My friend went there 3 years ago, and said price of the houses way more than GTA. He has been living in Toronto for 5 years, Company offered him same amount pretty much matched his salary here. For him the most important thing was the society, as i said the guy is social liberal and enjoys the feel of Canadian society plus he is into camping and likes the Canadian parks.
First matching salary for Bay Area is ridiculous. Comparable rents and real estate in most categories is way higher. Yes Toronto has a weird obsession with a full sized SFH lot so far flung suburbs are more expensive here than any US city. Prime SFH, townhouse, apartments as well as inner suburbs are all substantially more. Finally you can live in Mission Hill and you will still see feces every morning and have to step over homeless people. It’s liberal in that they let them do whatever they want but not liberal they address root causes of poverty and mental illness so really worst of both worlds imho.
Sr. Member
Jul 7, 2019
867 posts
705 upvotes
sckor wrote: Interesting - thanks for sharing those links!

The Bay Area number looks super low, as back in 2015-2016 I had been unseriously considering a purchase in the South Bay (Santa Clara County), and even then finding anything passable for less than $1.6m was a stretch. So that summary number seemed super low for the Bay Area. Digging into the CAR data, what they consider the Bay Area goes a bit beyond what many might consider Bay Area proper. For those with jobs in tech or finance you generally mean an area around SF and Oakland, north to Marin and south to Santa Clara / San Jose.

Alameda $1,163,000
Marin $1,627,500
San Francisco $1,755,000
San Mateo $1,985,000
Santa Clara $1,600,000

And lets not talk about the $20k+ per year you'll be paying in property taxes because they only raise them when a house sells. Great if you've owned a place for a long time, but terrible if you are getting into the property market down there.
Are these in CAD or USD?
Deal Addict
Jul 1, 2006
1051 posts
964 upvotes
MotoCross817 wrote: Are these in CAD or USD?
USD. But of course if you are living in the SF Bay Area, you are also making USD.
Member
Jun 27, 2007
316 posts
239 upvotes
California
sckor wrote: Interesting - thanks for sharing those links!

The Bay Area number looks super low, as back in 2015-2016 I had been unseriously considering a purchase in the South Bay (Santa Clara County), and even then finding anything passable for less than $1.6m was a stretch. So that summary number seemed super low for the Bay Area. Digging into the CAR data, what they consider the Bay Area goes a bit beyond what many might consider Bay Area proper. For those with jobs in tech or finance you generally mean an area around SF and Oakland, north to Marin and south to Santa Clara / San Jose.

Alameda $1,163,000
Marin $1,627,500
San Francisco $1,755,000
San Mateo $1,985,000
Santa Clara $1,600,000
I'd throw in Contra Costa in that mix ($920,000). Many people working in tech/biotech commute from Concord, Lafayette, Walnut Creek, and Dublin/Pleasanton (which actually has a few tech jobs). With flexible work post-covid (I'm in biotech and can WFH 60% of time going forward), this is becoming the new normal (just like I know people living in Oakville or Milton who commute into the city). Very few people I work with live in SF when looking to buy a home, it's a city with 800,000 people w/ area smaller than the size of North York . The link I posted above has '416' area code in the GTA having detached homes selling for $1,699,756 in April, which is not surprising as you more into the city.
sckor wrote: And lets not talk about the $20k+ per year you'll be paying in property taxes because they only raise them when a house sells. Great if you've owned a place for a long time, but terrible if you are getting into the property market down there.
Property taxes are indeed pretty nuts (probably 17K for a 1.5M home), which is my my wife and I considered moving back to GTA. The crazier part is after running the numbers, we still save more in the Bay Area. My wife just asked her manager the salary band to move to GTA (tech) and he said it's a 40% cut. I expect the same for me as well - even building a 1.7M home here leads to better cash flow than the average in Toronto.
Deal Addict
Jul 1, 2006
1051 posts
964 upvotes
fr33style wrote: I'd throw in Contra Costa in that mix ($920,000). Many people working in tech/biotech commute from Concord, Lafayette, Walnut Creek, and Dublin/Pleasanton (which actually has a few tech jobs). With flexible work post-covid (I'm in biotech and can WFH 60% of time going forward), this is becoming the new normal (just like I know people living in Oakville or Milton who commute into the city). Very few people I work with live in SF when looking to buy a home, it's a city with 800,000 people w/ area smaller than the size of North York . The link I posted above has '416' area code in the GTA having detached homes selling for $1,699,756 in April, which is not surprising as you more into the city.


Property taxes are indeed pretty nuts (probably 17K for a 1.5M home), which is my my wife and I considered moving back to GTA. The crazier part is after running the numbers, we still save more in the Bay Area. My wife just asked her manager the salary band to move to GTA (tech) and he said it's a 40% cut. I expect the same for me as well - even building a 1.7M home here leads to better cash flow than the average in Toronto.
I got somewhat lucky in that I didn't take that much of a pay-cut overall when I moved back to Canada. Also had the advantage of not wanting or needing to be in the GTA, which let me spend well under CAD$1M for a house here in Ottawa. As the world flattens, those sorts of salary adjustments based on location seem just silly. If I'm worth X to you living in Y, I should still be worth X to you even though I'm living in Z.

I run the rough numbers occasionally, and I'd probably do slightly better in the Bay after taxes and everything else is taken into consideration. But I'd be renting a house, not buying - unless I was willing to commute from Contra Costa or some other lower-cost but not too far away location. I'd only consider that if I were working from home most days. Good food for thought!Electric Light Bulb

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