Real Estate

Month to month tenancy question

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  • Oct 3rd, 2019 5:19 pm
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[OP]
Newbie
Oct 2, 2019
7 posts

Month to month tenancy question

HI everyone, I tried to find a more specific sub-forum for tenant advice but did not see one. I hope I am in the right place.
I am on disability and I have a good tenancy history and great credit-I should not be having trouble finding housing (i never have before), but I am currently.
A woman has offered me her basement suite but want to go "month to month." Does that mean that she can give me 60 days notice and make me move without any cause? My understanding is that when I have had previous leases, they started off long term but went month to month at the end of that term-my understand is that I could not be asked to move without cause, regardless of the duration of the lease.
I ask because when she showed me the unit (which has a separate entrance, separate bathroom and kitchenette-we don't share either) there was a tenant living there who she decided she did not like. She told that tenant that her son was moving in and asked her to leave, and she did. It did not impress me that she showed me the suite illegally and lied to make her move. I cannot determine if she is therefore dishonest and that I should expect the same treatment, though the tenant admittedly seemed problematic (they were noisy, dirty, bringing home men, and police were called to the suite, creating a disturbance.) She didn't "evict" her, she asked her to leave and used that as an excuse-obviously I am not thrilled about the misrepresentation, and at least she told me what was going on (that is, she didn't not tell me about the problem)
Besides all of that, if I am a good tenant can she use the lack of a lease or "month to month" arrangement to make me move if she doesn't like me, or does she have to keep me as long as pay rent? thank you for your advice.
Oh, Im sorry, I should have mentioned I am in Ontario.
Last edited by Emmarenter on Oct 3rd, 2019 2:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
13 replies
Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
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Edmonton
Emmarenter wrote: HI everyone, I tried to find a more specific sub-forum for tenant advice but did not see one. I hope I am in the right place.
I am on disability and I have a good tenancy history and great credit-I should not be having trouble finding housing (i never have before), but I am currently.
A woman has offered me her basement suite but want to go "month to month." Does that mean that she can give me 60 days notice and make me move without any cause? My understanding is that when I have had previous leases, they started off long term but went month to month at the end of that term-my understand is that I could not be asked to move without cause, regardless of the duration of the lease.
I ask because when she showed me the unit (which has a separate entrance, separate bathroom and kitchenette-we don't share either) there was a tenant living there who she decided she did not like. She told that tenant that her son was moving in and asked her to leave, and she did. It did not impress me that she showed me the suite illegally and lied to make her move. I cannot determine if she is therefore dishonest and that I should expect the same treatment, though the tenant admittedly seemed problematic (they were noisy, dirty, bringing home men, and police were called to the suite, creating a disturbance.)
"All of that, if I am a good tenant can she use the lack of a lease or "month to month" arrangement to make me move if she doesn't like me, or does she have to keep me as long as pay rent? thank you for your advice
You can expect the same treatment she showed her last tenant, but because you expect it, if she ever does boot you out for "personal use", you'll know to watch for her listing and you can take her to the LTB for costs.

Yes, she could evict you at any time with 60 days notice and one month's rent as compensation.

C
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Dec 19, 2001
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Fernando Poo
Depends what province you're in. Wouldn't trust a landlord who misrepresents an eviction, and good luck going to the LTB for recourse if you're in Ontario. There are landlords who do the "family member moving in" thing regularly on many properties they own, the LTB is aware of this, and yet, nothing is done against the landlord. This loophole is the one out landlords have so I guess its to be expected.
Deal Addict
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Jan 2, 2012
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Emmarenter wrote: HI everyone, I tried to find a more specific sub-forum for tenant advice but did not see one. I hope I am in the right place.
I am on disability and I have a good tenancy history and great credit-I should not be having trouble finding housing (i never have before), but I am currently.
A woman has offered me her basement suite but want to go "month to month." Does that mean that she can give me 60 days notice and make me move without any cause? My understanding is that when I have had previous leases, they started off long term but went month to month at the end of that term-my understand is that I could not be asked to move without cause, regardless of the duration of the lease.
I ask because when she showed me the unit (which has a separate entrance, separate bathroom and kitchenette-we don't share either) there was a tenant living there who she decided she did not like. She told that tenant that her son was moving in and asked her to leave, and she did. It did not impress me that she showed me the suite illegally and lied to make her move. I cannot determine if she is therefore dishonest and that I should expect the same treatment, though the tenant admittedly seemed problematic (they were noisy, dirty, bringing home men, and police were called to the suite, creating a disturbance.)
"All of that, if I am a good tenant can she use the lack of a lease or "month to month" arrangement to make me move if she doesn't like me, or does she have to keep me as long as pay rent? thank you for your advice
I assume you're in Ontario?

Month to month just means that if she wanted the unit back for personal use, she would be able to do at any time (with proper notice/compensation). Other than that, you are still protected by the RTA when it comes to your rights as a renter and under what situations you're allowed to be evicted.

She evicted the previous tenant in bad faith. If the previous tenants happen to be monitoring the unit (by chance did you find it on an advertised rental site or something?) and see its up for rent, or if they find out it's been rented out within 1 year of their eviction, they can file a complaint to the LTB. If she is determined to have evicted in bad faith by the LTB she could face a penalty up to $25,000 as well as owing financial losses to the previous tenants.

Same thing would apply to you, should she later try to evict you with same excuse and you think she is acting in bad faith.

Sounds like she may not be aware of the rules around eviction for personal use and potential penalties, since she is freely explaining what she did to you.

So everything may go smoothly, but proceed at your own risk as there are warning signs already. Research the RTA as well so you are prepared if she tries anything.
[OP]
Newbie
Oct 2, 2019
7 posts
Thanks. Of course it DOES concern me that she lied to her last tenant, but I can always raise the issue-if she were to try it with me-that she lied previously about personal use. I don't know what to make out of the fact that she told me about the fact that she was doing that.
[OP]
Newbie
Oct 2, 2019
7 posts
Sorry, I am not good with the quoting feature. But to answer the question, did I find the place advertised. The answer is no, because I am on disability, so many people refuse to rent to me (illegally) despite my good refs and great credit. SO what I find works best is to place an ad saying who I am and what I seek, (peace and quiet is high on the list), and this woman responded to my ad. SO she did not throw the last tenant out and then re-advertise-the old tenant will not find the suite advertised somewhere. She (landlord) found me on a board of accommodation seekers and thought we would be a good match. My only concern of course is whether or not she will do the same to me. On the one hand, it seems like this last tenant was legitimately a problem, and its nice that she was honest with me about what she was doing. On the other hand, of course , its a concern that I want to settle down and I don't want to be looking for a new place again in 3 months if she does this often. I'm hoping it was an extraordinary circumstance. And I don';t have many other choices given my budget, my needs, and my income.
Thanks to everyone responding...
[OP]
Newbie
Oct 2, 2019
7 posts
Yes, Rob, In Ontario. When I saw the suite, I did express concern about what would happen if the tenant did not move out. She was offering me the suite and I'm like, what if she doesn't leave. And she responded, I will make her leave, she's month to month. AND I said, month to month or not, it doesn't work like that. You would have to file papers.
So I waited on pins and needles for 2 weeks to see if she would leave. She left a day late and they are cleaning the suite for me.
So yes, I am concerned that she didn't seem to understand the laws, and that's why I thought I would clarify things here, in case I have to assert the laws. IF she decided her son wants the suite, I would bring up the bad faith issue, the previous issues, ...but wonder if I would still have to get out in 60 days anyway because its month-to-month and those issues are irrelevant. Or are they?
Deal Addict
Feb 19, 2019
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Stouffville ON
Emmarenter wrote: Sorry, I am not good with the quoting feature. But to answer the question, did I find the place advertised. The answer is no, because I am on disability, so many people refuse to rent to me (illegally) despite my good refs and great credit.
I am really sorry to hear your are faced with such treatment.

Not sure anyone can tell you the landlord intentions, or if she lied to you, if the previous tenant was such a nuisance, police was called, disturbance, noise, if that was true and you put yourself in her shoes, I imagine most people would want to get rid of such tenant in any possible way.

Is it possible for you to talk to the neighbours? they are often great source of info, and if police was called and there was excessive noise / disturbance I am sure they will know, it may help you determine if she is getting rid of tenants to increase the rent or indeed this tenant was a huge problem.
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[OP]
Newbie
Oct 2, 2019
7 posts
senasena wrote: I am really sorry to hear your are faced with such treatment.

Not sure anyone can tell you the landlord intentions, or if she lied to you, if the previous tenant was such a nuisance, police was called, disturbance, noise, if that was true and you put yourself in her shoes, I imagine most people would want to get rid of such tenant in any possible way.

Is it possible for you to talk to the neighbours? they are often great source of info, and if police was called and there was excessive noise / disturbance I am sure they will know, it may help you determine if she is getting rid of tenants to increase the rent or indeed this tenant was a huge problem.
Thanks for the support. Yes, there is no way to know if it is a one-time problem or if its a personality thing she will do again. At this point, I cant back out, so I wont speak to the neighbours or anything. I was just looking to see if the month-to-month thing meant she could make me leave anytime with 60 days notice, or if I had protections
Deal Addict
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Jan 2, 2012
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Emmarenter wrote: Yes, Rob, In Ontario. When I saw the suite, I did express concern about what would happen if the tenant did not move out. She was offering me the suite and I'm like, what if she doesn't leave. And she responded, I will make her leave, she's month to month. AND I said, month to month or not, it doesn't work like that. You would have to file papers.
Wow so she told previous tenants she needed unit for personal use, then gave you a viewing of the place to potentially rent it before they had even moved out?? Landlord is extremely ballsy or seriously doesn't understand the implications of bad faith evictions.

It's possible she didn't use official paperwork (N12) to evict the previous tenant. They may have come to a handshake agreement or she could have used an N11 for a mutual end of tenancy, technically making the eviction legal (somewhat). Often tenants don't understand the rules either so just accept whatever landlord says.
IF she decided her son wants the suite, I would bring up the bad faith issue, the previous issues, ...but wonder if I would still have to get out in 60 days anyway because its month-to-month and those issues are irrelevant. Or are they?
If she in the future goes this route, she will have to serve you with an N12 form (eviction for personal use), give you 60 days notice, and agree to pay you 1 month rent as compensation.
If you think she is doing this in bad faith, you can fight the eviction and schedule a hearing with the LTB. What this will do is force the landlord to give a sworn declaration that she wants the unit for her or her families use and won't rent out the unit for at least 1 year (part of the L2 form landlord needs to do). Forcing her to do this, and making her realize the potential penalty if she simply re-rents the unit, may cause her to rethink the whole thing.
However if she insists and gives the declaration, then ultimately you would most likely have to leave. It would then be up to you to monitor the unit to see if it's indeed rented out within the year, and go to the LTB if that happens. But by then you would be living somewhere else, so would only do so if you wanted to punish her or get compensation for being forced out in bad faith.
Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
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Emmarenter wrote: Thanks for the support. Yes, there is no way to know if it is a one-time problem or if its a personality thing she will do again. At this point, I cant back out, so I wont speak to the neighbours or anything. I was just looking to see if the month-to-month thing meant she could make me leave anytime with 60 days notice, or if I had protections
Yes, she has to give you 60 days notice plus pay compensation. You COULD file for a hearing if she did try to evict you, and she would have to "prove" that she was doing it with the intention of moving her son in. Having proof of what she's done this time would possibly be useful, but it would be up to the board to decide. In any case, at that point your relationship will likely have degraded to the point you wouldn't want to be there anyway (since she lives so close to you).

She sounds like a real peach of a woman; maybe the other tenant is happy to be out of there anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if she's a controlling type.

One other thing to keep in mind is that there's nothing wrong with asking a tenant to leave (and legally, even lying to the tenant about moving the son in). The "illegal" part comes in when the landlord files for an eviction based on the lies and forces the tenant out. You said that she hadn't "evicted" the tenant (I believe you put it in quotes), which means she technically did nothing illegal. The tenant left on their own. If she pulls something like that on you, don't leave without your compensation, and watch the ads.

C
[OP]
Newbie
Oct 2, 2019
7 posts
CNeufeld wrote: Yes, she has to give you 60 days notice plus pay compensation. You COULD file for a hearing if she did try to evict you, and she would have to "prove" that she was doing it with the intention of moving her son in. Having proof of what she's done this time would possibly be useful, but it would be up to the board to decide. In any case, at that point your relationship will likely have degraded to the point you wouldn't want to be there anyway (since she lives so close to you).

She sounds like a real peach of a woman; maybe the other tenant is happy to be out of there anyway. I wouldn't be surprised if she's a controlling type.

One other thing to keep in mind is that there's nothing wrong with asking a tenant to leave (and legally, even lying to the tenant about moving the son in). The "illegal" part comes in when the landlord files for an eviction based on the lies and forces the tenant out. You said that she hadn't "evicted" the tenant (I believe you put it in quotes), which means she technically did nothing illegal. The tenant left on their own. If she pulls something like that on you, don't leave without your compensation, and watch the ads.

C
yes and no. First, she told her that her son was moving in, which was deceptive. She may have choose to say "i won't leave" if she knew if was an option. Second, she showed me the girls suite when she was out, under false pretenses. SHe told her she was having it evaluated for insurance. SO, your original take on the matter, that there was deception going on (and probably bad faith) is correct. But its not as bad as filing an eviction and saying her son was moving in. So, its a mixed bag I guess. All i know is, Ive had to move 3 times in 6 months and I would prefer not to again. But this is the best offer I have at present, so I will do my best to work with it....
thanks for your thoughts/time on the matter. Its been helpful....
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Mar 21, 2010
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Emmarenter wrote: But this is the best offer I have at present, so I will do my best to work with it....
That's probably what I would land on as well. You're right, this lady doesn't seem like the most upstanding citizen, and it's possible that in the future she might want you out for whatever reason, and you would be in the same situation as the previous tenant is in now. But in the meantime, you need somewhere to live right now, not a forever home, and if this is the best option, then this is the best option.

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