OMVIC and Returning a Vehicle

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May 14th, 2020 9:16 am

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May 11th, 2020 12:29 am

Gero43 [OP]: Sr. Member; Aug 29, 2008; 708 posts; 70 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 12:29 am

OMVIC and Returning a Vehicle

Hi, a friend of mine bought a vehicle from a small dealership. He bought it with credit card. The vehicle (2017 Chevy Sparks with 40,000 kms) had engine failure 2 months after purchase. Warranty was already expired. Safety is past 36 days. No aftermarket warranty. First of all, is there any legal recourse in this situation alone?

Now it goes more shady. The dealership disclosed him a "severe damaged accident" in the carproof. however he downplay it saying it was a front bumper. When I paid for a new carproof, it shows a $17,000 accident about 1000 kms before he bought it and estimate "total loss". Actual repair was $14,000. the carfax he displayed to him at time of purchase was pulled about 3 months before selling date and did not include any of the amounts listed above. Out of OMVIC regulations it seems this website may be returnable within 90 days due to this reason. Is it strong enough?

Now to the bigger issue. Dealer offered to pay $1000 towards the repair and the rest on him. He would do it with his mechanic to provide repair at "cost". I advised my friend to send me his bill of sale to analyze it if disclosures were made there as well as find any other irregularity he made have been ripped off on. However, bill of sale is in the car, and the car at the seller's mechanic. When he went to find it, papers are gone! so he doesn't have a bill of sale. He is been asking the dealer several times and he doesn't respond or keep pushing it.

To make things more complicated he is already fixing the car without providing an actual estimate of the repair cost, just saying "it shouldn't be more than 500- 1000 or so" on top of what he puts. We do not know what engine he is putting in (if super use or what) and through omvic regulations it seems mechanics have to provide with an estimate before fixing the car. Should we pay the repair?? can we pay and try to return the car after?

We are less than a week ago from the 90 days, and we have no bill of sale to make the omvic complaint, I just read their regulations and we needed to send a registered mail letter first which hasn't happened yet. Any clue how can we play this ?

Thanks in advance for any help.

35 replies

May 11th, 2020 7:54 am

Pete_Coach: Deal Expert; May 10, 2005; 36849 posts; 11276 upvotes; Ottawa

May 11th, 2020 7:54 am

"Warranty was already expired. Safety is past 36 days. No aftermarket warranty."
"The dealership disclosed him a "severe damaged accident" in the carproof"
"fixing the car without providing an actual estimate of the repair cost,"
"We are less than a week ago from the 90 days, and we have no bill of sale to make the omvic complaint, ".

I think you are hooped.

The most successful people are successful because they do not care about others’ opinions about them.

+5

May 11th, 2020 11:05 am

EP32k2: Deal Expert; Jan 15, 2006; 21137 posts; 23123 upvotes; Richmond Hill

May 11th, 2020 11:05 am

Chevy Spark with $14k damage and wasn't written off?

+4

May 11th, 2020 11:55 am

Cucumference: Deal Addict; Aug 19, 2018; 2096 posts; 2820 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 11:55 am

EP32k2 wrote: ↑ Chevy Spark with $14k damage and wasn't written off?

He said this "When I paid for a new carproof, it shows a $17,000 accident about 1000 kms before he bought it and estimate "total loss". Which means the card WAS written off.

More likely this is a buy back from the insurance company and some repair shop bought it from an auction and repaired it for cheap to sell it as a rebuild.

Which is kinda a "yikes" thing to do. If you see rebuild title on a 10k+ car, you should just walk away in my opinion. Rarely anything good come out of it. Normally rebuilt title come with a 1 year warranty. To have it go out in a month is very odd.

+5

May 11th, 2020 12:44 pm

xjesterxx: Deal Addict; Jul 5, 2011; 2454 posts; 2879 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 12:44 pm

Cucumference wrote: ↑ He said this "When I paid for a new carproof, it shows a $17,000 accident about 1000 kms before he bought it and estimate "total loss". Which means the card WAS written off.

More likely this is a buy back from the insurance company and some repair shop bought it from an auction and repaired it for cheap to sell it as a rebuild.

Which is kinda a "yikes" thing to do. If you see rebuild title on a 10k+ car, you should just walk away in my opinion. Rarely anything good come out of it. Normally rebuilt title come with a 1 year warranty. To have it go out in a month is very odd.

Not true.

There is a world of a difference between an estimate total loss and a rebuilt title.

Cars are estimated to be a total loss and repaired for less without being becoming a salvaged buy back. If this was a rebuild / salvage it would branded on the ownership... Maybe it is and OP's friend doesn't even know.

Think of it as the bodyshop saying it will cost $20k to repair, the insurance company says we will declare this as a total loss at that price. The bodyshop revises the bill to $17k, and the insurance company goes ahead with the repairs.

OP, I'll play devil's advocate here...

1. Your friend bought a car knowing it had a severe accident, which was disclosed using the Carfax that the dealership had on hand. It is entirely possible that it was a trade in, and the customer who traded it in had recently repaired the vehicle or lied about the claim amount - it takes a fair amount of time for claims to populate on a Carfax history report. You might think it's automatically the dealership trying to rip off your friend but consider 1. customer crashes car, gets it fixed 2. trades it in to dealership on a newer car 3. dealership throws it up for sale with a clean carfax 4. customer buys the car and finds out later. Who's to blame?

2. Your friend bought a car and the engine blew up. It happens.. I don't see why/how it's the responsibility of the dealership beyond their warranty period. I'm sure everyone will disagree with me, but I don't feel like they owe you anything. Your friend must have obviously gotten a good deal to be happy and buy the car understanding that it had an accident and only the 1 month warranty (edit: no warranty - the safety certificate is not a warranty). It sounds like they are already helping your friend out by fixing it on the cheap when they don't even have to?

3. It sounds like your friend lost the bill of sale - I find it hard to believe that the mechanic went in there and stole it. Think cost vs benefit here for the mechanic / dealer... Would it worth potentially losing your license, facing charges for theft, tampering of documents, etc to avoid having to review the bill of sale which the customer might have a copy of anyway? I don't think so.

All that being said.

Because your friend bought the vehicle with an undisclosed accident, unless it was clearly displayed in dollars on the bill of sale (which is lost, but I am sure your friend would remember - he/she would have had to initial the damages) then it would most certainly be grounds for returning the vehicle. The dealer could argue that the damage wasn't disclosed to them either, which to be honest sounds like the case given it was 1000KM before your friend bought it. Either way you could probably get OMVIC to enforce a return.

Have you or your friend called OMVIC to get their opinion?

2013 Wins - $1320 - Woohoo!

+6

May 11th, 2020 1:03 pm

Cucumference: Deal Addict; Aug 19, 2018; 2096 posts; 2820 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 1:03 pm

xjesterxx wrote: ↑ Cars are estimated to be a total loss and repaired for less without being becoming a salvaged buy back. If this was a rebuild / salvage it would branded on the ownership... Maybe it is and OP's friend doesn't even know.

How would an estimate show up on carproof if it wasn't carried through? I thought carproof only shows repairs that are actually done, not estimate.

May 11th, 2020 3:12 pm

ziaa: Deal Addict; Oct 16, 2007; 1659 posts; 940 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 3:12 pm

how is a 2017 with 40k out of warranty for the engine (5yr 160k from chevy) ?

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+1

May 11th, 2020 3:26 pm

koffey: Deal Expert; Oct 6, 2010; 15619 posts; 10281 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 3:26 pm

I was thinking the same thing. I'm going to assume that the front bumper damage may have resulted in a rebuild and if performed independently, there is no warranty...? So many unanswered questions and I don't think that the OP is going to answer or be able to answer them.

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May 11th, 2020 4:17 pm

ES_Revenge: Deal Expert; Mar 23, 2004; 35053 posts; 18076 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 4:17 pm

EP32k2 wrote: ↑Chevy Spark with $14k damage and wasn't written off?

It was written off, it looks like:

Gero43 wrote: ↑Now it goes more shady. The dealership disclosed him a "severe damaged accident" in the carproof. however he downplay it saying it was a front bumper. When I paid for a new carproof, it shows a $17,000 accident about 1000 kms before he bought it and estimate "total loss". Actual repair was $14,000. the carfax he displayed to him at time of purchase was pulled about 3 months before selling date and did not include any of the amounts listed above.

It was written off by at least the insurance company, as "total loss". The vehicle was then repaired afterwards (for whatever reason) for less than the first estimate--certainly possible and could have even been done cheaper than that. It's possible the original owner took a $17k cheque and then had it repaired for $14k, thinking they were "pocketing" the $3k. Then they realise first of all the car's a cheap POS to begin with and now is a hack-job repaired POS, lol. Gets rid of car. Or simply the owner walked away from it and got another car and then someone else fixed it to resell it or something.

ziaa wrote: ↑ how is a 2017 with 40k out of warranty for the engine (5yr 160k from chevy) ?

It was written off by at least the first insurance company after it got in the accident--"total loss" is the key term here. After that, all bets are off. Warranty is void on any vehicle after a total loss has been deemed/registered which has clearly happened here from the looks of it.

As for OP, what way to "play this" lol. Your friend is more than likely SOL. First off:

Gero43 wrote: ↑Hi, a friend of mine bought a vehicle from a small dealership. He bought it with credit card. The vehicle (2017 Chevy Sparks with 40,000 kms) had engine failure 2 months after purchase. Warranty was already expired. Safety is past 36 days. No aftermarket warranty. First of all, is there any legal recourse in this situation alone?

Usually? Nope.

Gero43 wrote: ↑Out of OMVIC regulations it seems this website may be returnable within 90 days due to this reason. Is it strong enough?

You will have to find out from/file with, OMVIC. Good luck with dealing with them (OMVIC is basically just a committee of the richest dealership owners lol), but you better not sit on it and wait because as you said the 90-days (if you even have any recourse there) is nearly up.

Gero43 wrote: ↑Now to the bigger issue. Dealer offered to pay $1000 towards the repair and the rest on him.

I'm surprised they didn't just tell him to pound sand, give the runaround, or try to ignore him, lol. Pretty lucky he got that but it points to them basically admitting they did wrong here; again, follow up with OMVIC ASAP.

Best of luck.

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May 11th, 2020 5:05 pm

Gero43 [OP]: Sr. Member; Aug 29, 2008; 708 posts; 70 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 5:05 pm

Thanks for the advice. So I called OMVIC, they said they can request a bill of sale however there is no 90 days return period lol. I looked up my sources and it says on Ontario.ca not omvic. So somehow they contradict each other. And as per omvic there is no need for the dealer to return the vehicle even if it did not disclose the accident. I’m not sure why these guys regulate the industry lol.

The car is 2015 sorry ! But still 40,000 kms. Out of warranty as of a month and a half ago. And I feel it’s the owner responsibility to provide an up to date carproof. Not 3 months old or so. The mechanic is quite shady so it could have happened they took the bill of sale.

+1

May 11th, 2020 5:22 pm

ziaa: Deal Addict; Oct 16, 2007; 1659 posts; 940 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 5:22 pm

If its out of warranty, then your friend is pretty much out of luck.

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May 11th, 2020 6:49 pm

Gero43 [OP]: Sr. Member; Aug 29, 2008; 708 posts; 70 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 6:49 pm

OK so i have more information...I called Chevy and it seems I used the wrong date and the car is still under warranty for 4 more days. However, dealer tried to take it to the dealer and they refused coverage. I guess warranty is voided due to previous accident. Furthermore, we got a bill of sale from the owner finally after threaten a bit. There was a warranty for $1000 in the vehicle that's why we offered it. Also, there is no disclosures on the bill of sale other than "carfax history reported". The numbers in the bill of sale dont add up and he got charged about $600 more in the credit card as well!!! Furthermore, kms when vehicle sold are about 50 kms lower than 2 service records reported 6 months earlier.

So:
- Kms sold lower than 2 previous reported mileage in carfax
- Bill of sales numbers don't add up
- Overcharge on credit card more than sales price with taxes
- Warranty Voided
- No disclosures of warranty voided or accident amounts

If this is not enough to return a car, I don't think anything is....this is literally the worst job I've ever seen.

May 11th, 2020 7:07 pm

derass: Deal Addict; Sep 8, 2017; 4684 posts; 4947 upvotes; GTA

May 11th, 2020 7:07 pm

Maybe this is where a UVIP would've been useful. Maybe it would've shown the "REBUILT" brand when the CARFAX didn't.

But the brand is also listed on the Vehicle Permit. That definitely would've shown "REBUILT" as soon as the buyer took ownership. That would've fit the criteria to cancel the contract. I guess the owner never looked at the permit.

May 11th, 2020 7:34 pm

xjesterxx: Deal Addict; Jul 5, 2011; 2454 posts; 2879 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 7:34 pm

derass wrote: ↑ Maybe this is where a UVIP would've been useful. Maybe it would've shown the "REBUILT" brand when the CARFAX didn't.

But the brand is also listed on the Vehicle Permit. That definitely would've shown "REBUILT" as soon as the buyer took ownership. That would've fit the criteria to cancel the contract. I guess the owner never looked at the permit.

It's probably not a salvage title.

OP are the mileage readings on the Carfax labelled as "Independent Odometer Reading" ? They are almost always wrong.

Let's see the bill of sale and the Carfax.

2013 Wins - $1320 - Woohoo!

May 11th, 2020 7:35 pm

DealRacer: Sr. Member; Feb 5, 2007; 755 posts; 388 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 7:35 pm

I nominate this as top confusing thread of 2020 so far...
Who is the dealer? Is the dealer the same as the owner who was threatened to provide a bill of sale.
Why did a dealer take car to dealer?
Since when does Ontario.ca provide a return period. (New Rob Ford policy ? Lol)
If Chevy says it has warranty it has warranty!
His mechanic is “shady”
What dealership will allow a 100% credit card purchase? I want to know as I have tried many times.

Who spends $14K on a 2015 spark repair?.

I call b.s. on the whole post.

+5

May 11th, 2020 7:51 pm

Gero43 [OP]: Sr. Member; Aug 29, 2008; 708 posts; 70 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 7:51 pm

derass wrote: ↑Maybe this is where a UVIP would've been useful. Maybe it would've shown the "REBUILT" brand when the CARFAX didn't.

But the brand is also listed on the Vehicle Permit. That definitely would've shown "REBUILT" as soon as the buyer took ownership. That would've fit the criteria to cancel the contract. I guess the owner never looked at the permit.

Vehicle brand is none on ownership.

xjesterxx wrote: ↑ It's probably not a salvage title.

OP are the mileage readings on the Carfax labelled as "Independent Odometer Reading" ? They are almost always wrong.

Let's see the bill of sale and the Carfax.

One is insurance records, one is independent source.

DealRacer wrote: ↑ I nominate this as top confusing thread of 2020 so far...
Who is the dealer? Is the dealer the same as the owner who was threatened to provide a bill of sale.
Why did a dealer take car to dealer?
Since when does Ontario.ca provide a return period. (New Rob Ford policy ? Lol)
If Chevy says it has warranty it has warranty!
His mechanic is “shady”
What dealership will allow a 100% credit card purchase? I want to know as I have tried many times.

Who spends $14K on a 2015 spark repair?.

I call b.s. on the whole post.

I just realized what you mean, the dealership he bought it from took the car to the Chevy Dealer for warranty work. The original dealer he bought it from is the one referred as the owner since its a one man operation. When I called chevy dealer, they said the warranty expires in may 15 but the original dealer where he bought the car said the warranty was "block" so it seems claim is denied I assume due to previous accident.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/buying-new- ... our-rights

Ive never heard of a dealer taking 100% credit card purchase but it happened lol, will disclose dealer name in a few days don't want that search on Google for now until resolved but i doubt you want to buy from there anyway lol.
The car cost was actually $11,000 + taxes. Repair was 14.

Hope that clears it.

May 11th, 2020 7:52 pm

ES_Revenge: Deal Expert; Mar 23, 2004; 35053 posts; 18076 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 7:52 pm

Gero43 wrote: ↑ Thanks for the advice. So I called OMVIC, they said they can request a bill of sale however there is no 90 days return period lol. I looked up my sources and it says on Ontario.ca not omvic. So somehow they contradict each other. And as per omvic there is no need for the dealer to return the vehicle even if it did not disclose the accident. I’m not sure why these guys regulate the industry lol.

Yep that sounds more like OMVIC now, lol. Told you, they're basically made up of dealers so whose interests do you think they are protecting? The same is true of every other regulatory board in Ontario by the way, LCBO, etc. All run by the people in the business and business is the key word in Ontario, let me tell you.

Tell your friend to take the $1k and run, either fix the car and sell it off, trade it back into some other place, or dump it in a lake. Kidding on the last part but you get the picture. Your friend is lucky they didn't just tell him to get bent. In the future your friend needs to have an independent inspection done before buying any used vehicle. I'm sure if this one had have been inspected, the mechanic would have advised against buying it.

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+1

May 11th, 2020 9:05 pm

DealRacer: Sr. Member; Feb 5, 2007; 755 posts; 388 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 9:05 pm

Gero43 wrote: ↑ Vehicle brand is none on ownership.

One is insurance records, one is independent source.

I just realized what you mean, the dealership he bought it from took the car to the Chevy Dealer for warranty work. The original dealer he bought it from is the one referred as the owner since its a one man operation. When I called chevy dealer, they said the warranty expires in may 15 but the original dealer where he bought the car said the warranty was "block" so it seems claim is denied I assume due to previous accident.

https://www.ontario.ca/page/buying-new- ... our-rights

Ive never heard of a dealer taking 100% credit card purchase but it happened lol, will disclose dealer name in a few days don't want that search on Google for now until resolved but i doubt you want to buy from there anyway lol.
The car cost was actually $11,000 + taxes. Repair was 14.

Hope that clears it.

So much doesn’t make sense here. Why is the current owner letting the ‘one man dealer’ tell him what another actual Chevy dealer can do under warranty?
So for fun I looked on Kijiji for 2015 Spark. Mostly 7,500-$9,000.
Now we find he paid $11K after a severe accident disclosure.
I’m not sure what to say other than I could write a book about all the poor decisions made so far.

Btw what is actually wrong with the motor? Is that even clear....

+1

May 11th, 2020 9:15 pm

Gero43 [OP]: Sr. Member; Aug 29, 2008; 708 posts; 70 upvotes; Toronto

May 11th, 2020 9:15 pm

DealRacer wrote: ↑ So much doesn’t make sense here. Why is the current owner letting the ‘one man dealer’ tell him what another actual Chevy dealer can do under warranty?
So for fun I looked on Kijiji for 2015 Spark. Mostly 7,500-$9,000.
Now we find he paid $11K after a severe accident disclosure.
I’m not sure what to say other than I could write a book about all the poor decisions made so far.

Btw what is actually wrong with the motor? Is that even clear....

He took it back where he bought it, then the one man dealer said he would take care of it, I assume because if he didnt go to the chevy dealership while still under warranty, his $1000 protection warranty kicks in in just a few days. However, after taking it to that chevy dealer, mechanic said warranty is blocked, whatever he meant with that.

For now I think he has enough arguments to return the car, we are gonna reach OMVIC and see what happens. I'll update you guys in a week or two or a month whenever OMVIC moves their asses.

May 11th, 2020 9:25 pm

DealRacer: Sr. Member; Feb 5, 2007; 755 posts; 388 upvotes

May 11th, 2020 9:25 pm

Gero43 wrote: ↑ He took it back where he bought it, then the one man dealer said he would take care of it, I assume because if he didnt go to the chevy dealership while still under warranty, his $1000 protection warranty kicks in in just a few days. However, after taking it to that chevy dealer, mechanic said warranty is blocked, whatever he meant with that.

For now I think he has enough arguments to return the car, we are gonna reach OMVIC and see what happens. I'll update you guys in a week or two or a month whenever OMVIC moves their asses.

My last piece of advice. You assume to much. You are assuming fact based on other peoples word who you don’t trust. Why? Walk in to a Chevy dealer with the ownership and get the straight goods on the warranty status. Second.if you present this case for your friend like you summarized your post to OMVIC you don’t stand a chance. Do you even know the one man dealer is registered with OMVIC?

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