Personal Finance

ONT ONLY - GreenOn Solar System Rebates

  • Last Updated:
  • Oct 15th, 2019 6:40 am
[OP]
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Backlight wrote:
May 16th, 2018 9:35 pm
"Participants must be connected to the system of a local hydro company" - which I am.. Not clear based on the Eligibility Requirements why that would negate a rebate on the battery system?
If you are on the grid you use the grid as your battery sending excess power when you have it, and drawing from the grid when you need more power than your panels generate.
If you are off the grid you obviously need batteries, but would only be eligible if you were moving from a diesel generating system.

I don't expect they are contemplating people who are grid connected also having batteries. There is no benefit to that under normal conditions (batteries would only be useful if grid power went down). But unfortunately there isn't much info available so we can't know for sure.
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Jan 8, 2011
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JWL wrote:
May 16th, 2018 11:03 pm
If you are on the grid you use the grid as your battery sending excess power when you have it, and drawing from the grid when you need more power than your panels generate.
If you are off the grid you obviously need batteries, but would only be eligible if you were moving from a diesel generating system.

I don't expect they are contemplating people who are grid connected also having batteries. There is no benefit to that under normal conditions (batteries would only be useful if grid power went down). But unfortunately there isn't much info available so we can't know for sure.
Ah, I understand. I was planning on using the batteries for just that, loss of grid power. I have two choices at the moment, batteries or a whole home generator with ATS. The batteries could also be an interesting use case if they move net metered customers to TOU, allowing rate arbitrage.

Guess we'll see what the program details are. The 20MW cap for residential is not allot...
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Does anyone know why there's such an aversion to ground mounted systems with these programs? Rural areas have a ton of free space to put these and installs would be quite simple...unless they don't want a bunch of rural sign ups?

Net metering is a scam unless there's a time of use pricing for inputs into the system and this program remains non TOU. Why?
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Nov 24, 2013
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JWL wrote:
May 16th, 2018 11:03 pm
I don't expect they are contemplating people who are grid connected also having batteries. There is no benefit to that under normal conditions (batteries would only be useful if grid power went down). But unfortunately there isn't much info available so we can't know for sure.
Why are these things mentioned then? The $1/W for rooftop Solar PV-only, and the $3/W for off-grid Solar+Storage replacing Diesel are straightforward. The bolded two in the middle seem to cover a grid-tied Solar PV + Storage situation? Would the $370/kWh of storage be in addition to the $1.50/nominal W or no?

"Get rebates after you install eligible Solar PV, Energy Storage, or Solar Thermal Air systems for your home and business:

Home
The program provides the following incentives*:

$1.00 per watt for residential Solar Photovoltaic (PV) system
$370 per kilowatt hour for residential Storage system
$1.50 per watt for residential Solar PV + Storage system
$3.00 per watt for residential standalone off-grid Solar PV + Storage system"

In theory, a PowerWall-type setup could draw from stored kWh before drawing from the grid, but isn't there no benefit to this on Net Metering, where it's the total usage that matters and not the time you use it?
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Mike15 wrote:
May 17th, 2018 1:59 pm
Why are these things mentioned then?
Because they are offered, but within the eligibility requirements.
For starters batteries are normally associated with off-grid solar systems.
And my read is that you can get rebates for battery systems only if it is replacing a diesel generator system.
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Dec 24, 2001
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My thinking was to have a battery system only that I would used during peak rate during the day and charge the battery at low rate at night.

I guest my decision will be base how much the battery system will cost and how long it will take to pay off.

JWL wrote:
May 16th, 2018 11:03 pm

I don't expect they are contemplating people who are grid connected also having batteries. There is no benefit to that under normal conditions (batteries would only be useful if grid power went down). But unfortunately there isn't much info available so we can't know for sure.
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lurker99 wrote:
May 18th, 2018 9:03 am
My thinking was to have a battery system only that I would used during peak rate during the day and charge the battery at low rate at night.

I guest my decision will be base how much the battery system will cost and how long it will take to pay off.
Peak is 13.2c and off-peak is 6.5c. A 13.5kWh Powerwall would at most save $0.90/day, and that's before factoring in that the roundtrip efficiency is ~90%. That's also assuming you're displacing a full 13.5kWh/day of usage during peak hours.
Weekends and holidays are all off-peak, so there'd be no benefit on those days. Basically arbitrage between the day and overnight rates is never going to be enough to pay for a storage system (1 Powerwall is $8,100, not installed) unless peak rates go really high or there's ever a "super off-peak" 2am kind of rate. There's value in storage systems for being able to provide backup power (an automated natgas/propane generator system is several thousand dollars), but that's about it unless you're building off-grid.

Further, if you have to be on Net Metering for this rebate, then you aren't on Time of Use pricing anyway.
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Feb 9, 2006
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Sorry if this has been asked but is there an approved list of installers for the GreenOn Program? Is an approved installer necessary? I didn't see that part listed or mentioned anywhere.
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Dec 17, 2007
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Mike15 wrote:
May 18th, 2018 10:33 am
Peak is 13.2c and off-peak is 6.5c. A 13.5kWh Powerwall would at most save $0.90/day, and that's before factoring in that the roundtrip efficiency is ~90%. That's also assuming you're displacing a full 13.5kWh/day of usage during peak hours.
Weekends and holidays are all off-peak, so there'd be no benefit on those days. Basically arbitrage between the day and overnight rates is never going to be enough to pay for a storage system (1 Powerwall is $8,100, not installed) unless peak rates go really high or there's ever a "super off-peak" 2am kind of rate. There's value in storage systems for being able to provide backup power (an automated natgas/propane generator system is several thousand dollars), but that's about it unless you're building off-grid.

Further, if you have to be on Net Metering for this rebate, then you aren't on Time of Use pricing anyway.
If you're a Powerstream Customer, you could have joined their Advantage Power Pricing Trial program. It gives you an overnight rate of 2c/kwh (12am to 6am). Perfect for people with electric vehicles or Powerwalls
[OP]
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lurker99 wrote:
May 18th, 2018 9:03 am
My thinking was to have a battery system only that I would used during peak rate during the day and charge the battery at low rate at night.

I guest my decision will be base how much the battery system will cost and how long it will take to pay off.
As noted in the First Post and lurker99, if your solar system is grid connected you'll be net metering and will be on Tiered Price, not Time of Use.

EDIT: Just confirmed via email that net metering clients move to Tiered pricing and will not use Time of Use pricing.
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Sep 24, 2006
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does anyone have a spread sheet to show why net metering with a rebate still sucks? I can fathom why spending lets say 16k for net metering without a rebate sucks but lets say you get a 4-5k rebate and its 11-12k... does it still suck... I spend about 1500-1600$/year on electricity. I missed the microfit boat.

Also can someone comment on these panels wind resistance as the most recent wind storm is in my memory.
[OP]
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staffpro wrote:
May 28th, 2018 9:03 pm
does anyone have a spread sheet to show why net metering with a rebate still sucks? I can fathom why spending lets say 16k for net metering without a rebate sucks but lets say you get a 4-5k rebate and its 11-12k... does it still suck... I spend about 1500-1600$/year on electricity. I missed the microfit boat.

Also can someone comment on these panels wind resistance as the most recent wind storm is in my memory.
I don't, but here are some of the things you have to figure out how much you'd actually save.
1. How much of your bill is delivery charge plus GST? You will continue to pay this regardless of how much you use.
2. If your billing is on Time of Use, will you pay more or less when converted to Tiered pricing.
3. How much GST will you pay on usage that you don't get back when using credits?
You have to do a detailed analysis of your month by month bills for a year to understand this.

Once you know this amount, you need to calculate your Return on Investment AFTER COSTS over a specified period of time. You have to look at it over a fairly long period of time (15-20 years) to get a decent rate of return. This long period means if you sell your house before this period is up, and don't get more for your house because of the panels, your return is substantially diminished.
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westottawa wrote:
May 29th, 2018 12:32 pm
I tried to post this spreadsheet but it did not seem to work. It is rough and probably has lots of errors. Link to spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/ ... sp=sharing.
Nice. Suggest that instead of putting in interest + depreciation, put in loan payments (principal + interest). This formula in cell B18 will do the trick for a 25 year loan: =pmt(A18,25,B7,0)

Not sure of the source for Cost after Rebate, but max rebate is for a 10kwh system.
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May 28, 2018
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JWL wrote:
May 29th, 2018 6:52 pm
Nice. Suggest that instead of putting in interest + depreciation, put in loan payments (principal + interest). This formula in cell B18 will do the trick for a 25 year loan: =pmt(A18,25,B7,0)

Not sure of the source for Cost after Rebate, but max rebate is for a 10kwh system.
Thanks for the comments. I split out the grant. I was only using $10k grant at each level but that was not clear before. What I don't like is the long time period before it makes money. Ideally I would want it to be worthwhile at year ten. In 5 years there may be better tech or too many other variables may change. For instance will hydro jack the fixed costs or the net metering fee. A project that needs 25 years, seems very risky. Selling your house is another risk previously mentioned. Panels exposed to the environment for 25 years is risky (hail, wind, vandals, kids with rocks). I would do solar to either make money or make a little money and help the environment. From what I see, even with the grant, returns are not great and with Ontario having pretty clean hydro, better to spend the money on a new Volt. I am going to play with the numbers a little more. I was hopeful this would work. Plus in my case, I probably have to remove a few trees (sad + more cost). That reminds me there is also the risk that generation ends up being less than expected. Perhaps better to buy a good, diversified ETF fund.

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