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Ontario school boards squander $16.7-million by hanging on to retirees

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  • Apr 23rd, 2010 2:15 pm
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Jan 14, 2006
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Ontario school boards squander $16.7-million by hanging on to retirees

http://www.torontosun.com/comment/colum ... 95136.html

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/W ... story.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le1538676/


A few articles about retired teachers taking up supply jobs that could go to new teachers.

It should be said that this is only just part of the problem facing newly minted teachers. Over enrollment in teachers college, dropping enrollment in schools leading to school closings, and lack of funding to maintain reasonable class sizes are among many factors which contribute to the current job crisis in the teaching profession.
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jamgyu wrote: http://www.torontosun.com/comment/colum ... 95136.html

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/W ... story.html

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/nat ... le1538676/


A few articles about retired teachers taking up supply jobs that could go to new teachers.

It should be said that this is only just part of the problem facing newly minted teachers. Over enrollment in teachers college, dropping enrollment in schools leading to school closings, and lack of funding to maintain reasonable class sizes are among many factors which contribute to the current job crisis in the teaching profession.
Maybe someone can clarify this for me. I'm not familiar with all the collective agreements in place through the various school boards, but within the YRDSB isn't there just a flat wage for supply teaching? I was told the daily rate is approx $210 and if you do a certain number of days consecutively you would then get the LTO/Contract position rate, which would take into account your experience etc. So how is it that retired teachers get up to $400 a day?
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rapsrealm wrote: Maybe someone can clarify this for me. I'm not familiar with all the collective agreements in place through the various school boards, but within the YRDSB isn't there just a flat wage for supply teaching? I was told the daily rate is approx $210 and if you do a certain number of days consecutively you would then get the LTO/Contract position rate, which would take into account your experience etc. So how is it that retired teachers get up to $400 a day?

Pay scale is based on a 4 tier system with A1 being the lowest and A4 being the highest. Position on the scale is based on qualifications. Then depending on what tier you're on, pay increases based on years of experience. So basically an A4 elementary teacher with 10 years experience will be making approx. anywhere from $94000 - $96000 per year (higher for secondary school) depending on the school board. Supply teachers (at least those certified with OCT) are also subject to the same tier/experience system. The $400/day from the article I think is based on secondary school teachers at the top of the pay scale.
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jamgyu wrote: Pay scale is based on a 4 tier system with A1 being the lowest and A4 being the highest. Position on the scale is based on qualifications. Then depending on what tier you're on, pay increases based on years of experience. So basically an A4 elementary teacher with 10 years experience will be making approx. anywhere from $94000 - $96000 per year depending on the school board. Supply teachers (at least those certified with OCT) are also subject to the same tier/experience system.
I understand the 4 tier system but from my understanding of at least York Region is that a supply teacher gets a daily rate and does not get their "graded rate" unless they are doing an LTO assignment for a certain number of consecutive days. So I wasn't sure how a retired teacher would receive a days pay based off of their 95,000 salary.
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rapsrealm wrote: I understand the 4 tier system but from my understanding of at least York Region is that a supply teacher gets a daily rate and does not get their "graded rate" unless they are doing an LTO assignment for a certain number of consecutive days. So I wasn't sure how a retired teacher would receive a days pay based off of their 95,000 salary.

I think the article in the Globe is referring mostly to the TDSB when they quote numbers.

Personally I'm not sure of YRDSB's pay system for daily supply teachers.
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jamgyu wrote: Pay scale is based on a 4 tier system with A1 being the lowest and A4 being the highest. Position on the scale is based on qualifications. Then depending on what tier you're on, pay increases based on years of experience. So basically an A4 elementary teacher with 10 years experience will be making approx. anywhere from $94000 - $96000 per year (higher for secondary school) depending on the school board. Supply teachers (at least those certified with OCT) are also subject to the same tier/experience system. The $400/day from the article I think is based on secondary school teachers at the top of the pay scale.
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rapsrealm wrote: I thought everyone on RFD makes 100K+?
We do, we also all drive bmw's and date super models with pointy elbows.


But teachers??? If they make almost 100k, why are they always going on strike?
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Spinoza wrote: We do, we also all drive bmw's and date super models with pointy elbows.


But teachers??? If they make almost 100k, why are they always going on strike?
They actually haven't gone on strike since McGuinty took over.
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Spinoza wrote: We do, we also all drive bmw's and date super models with pointy elbows.


But teachers??? If they make almost 100k, why are they always going on strike?

if it makes anyone feel better I think it's only 1 school board that pays in the over 90K Salary range for top tier elementary and secondary teachers. I think TDSB is currently around 89K but going up to around 95K in the next year or two.

at least you can see why unemployed teachers are so upset that they can't get jobs... look at all the earning potential they're missing out on! (not to mention the vacation time).

:cheesygri
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my mom was a grade 6 teacher for years and years and i dont think she made over 70k maybe?(thames valley distric school board)
then she moved to librarian for a year or two and then retired
my dad on the other hand is a prof at a university and is close to making 100k i think
but then theres teachers at my college who teach multiple programs at different school :confused:
my one teacher would be in kitchener monday mornings and be back at fanshawe for a 2pm class
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jordanr1987 wrote: my mom was a grade 6 teacher for years and years and i dont think she made over 70k maybe?(thames valley distric school board)
then she moved to librarian for a year or two and then retired
my dad on the other hand is a prof at a university and is close to making 100k i think
but then theres teachers at my college who teach multiple programs at different school :confused:
my one teacher would be in kitchener monday mornings and be back at fanshawe for a 2pm class

you have to remember the over 90K salary is for a teacher with over 10 years experience, upgraded qualifications (ie. about 3 or more Additional Qualification courses or a Masters in addition to their B.A./B.Sc. and B.Ed., ) and for only the boards that have that high of a salary scale.

I think the difference between an A4 level and an A2 level teacher is about $20K in salary at 10 years experience.
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I 100% understand why schools prefer retired teachers. When I was in highschool, we had a few retired teachers who did most of the subbing, and they were great. Sometimes better than our normal teacher. When we had younger subs, most of the time it was just a waste of a class.

Young teachers need to get experience somehow though. The policies need to change to reflect the current situation, and right now, there are way to many young teachers to be giving so many supply days to retirees.
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Mar 9, 2010
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I really don't like old teacher as oppose to younger teachers. At least by experiences, i found younger teachers teach a lot better and more popular with students then old folk teachers. (not to mention when you have a hot german teacher that teach french at her 20s.. hmm)

They need to hire more young teachers for school then keeping the old folks. Retire them at age of 50 already.
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Old teachers have nothing else better to do than to stay. The same problem exists in the Gov of Toronto. Way too many overpaid managers that do jack all day and will not leave (union 79/416 set no required retire date) I think.
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jamgyu wrote: if it makes anyone feel better I think it's only 1 school board that pays in the over 90K Salary range for top tier elementary and secondary teachers. I think TDSB is currently around 89K but going up to around 95K in the next year or two.

at least you can see why unemployed teachers are so upset that they can't get jobs... look at all the earning potential they're missing out on! (not to mention the vacation time).

:cheesygri
That's a little bit cold. Do you realize how bad it is for these teachers? My wife is a "new teacher". She graduated from teachers college two years ago and has been supplying since. The past few months have been really bad. I'd say she's only gotten an average of one day of work a week, and sometimes less. That's $195 a week. But she only has to go in one day a week right? Well you still can't DO anything (like work another job). You need to keep your days open just in case you get the call. She's now looking into part time work at nights and on the weekends, but they wont pay much more than minimum wage. On the days she does need to supply teach, she'll go straight from school to work, and end up working 12hrs+ in a day, not to mention I don't know how often I'll see her anymore. Don't forget, these are people with at least an undergraduate degree from university where from what I can guess will probably make less than $10000 a year for many years. So next time you want to make a snarky comment please think about the people that are involved.
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da_guy2 wrote: That's a little bit cold. Do you realize how bad it is for these teachers? My wife is a "new teacher". She graduated from teachers college two years ago and has been supplying since. The past few months have been really bad. I'd say she's only gotten an average of one day of work a week, and sometimes less. That's $195 a week. But she only has to go in one day a week right? Well you still can't DO anything (like work another job). You need to keep your days open just in case you get the call. She's now looking into part time work at nights and on the weekends, but they wont pay much more than minimum wage. On the days she does need to supply teach, she'll go straight from school to work, and end up working 12hrs+ in a day, not to mention I don't know how often I'll see her anymore. Don't forget, these are people with at least an undergraduate degree from university where from what I can guess will probably make less than $10000 a year for many years. So next time you want to make a snarky comment please think about the people that are involved.

first off you should know that I'm a new teacher who just happens to not have a job because of the current situation... and in fact I'm in a worse situation than your wife because I didn't even get to do supplying the last 2 years. I've been volunteering and taking more courses (ie. spending more money without earning more) so trust me I can feel the financial squeeze probably more so than your wife does considering I don't have a second income to help support me. So YES I do understand what it's like and I obviously do think about the people involved.

Second that comment was said tongue in cheek... hence the goofy smiley face after the comment. So next time you want to call someone out on the board maybe YOU should think about that the people involved who are worse off than your wife. I started this thread to bring attention to the situation all of us new teachers face. In all seriousness I do wish your wife well as I understand her plight. I hope we both are able to find work in the coming school year but from what I've been hearing it's looking more grim than last year. Even demand for the ever so popular French teachers seems to be waning.
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jamgyu wrote: first off you should know that I'm a new teacher who just happens to not have a job because of the current situation... and in fact I'm in a worse situation than your wife because I didn't even get to do supplying the last 2 years. I've been volunteering and taking more courses (ie. spending more money without earning more) so trust me I can feel the financial squeeze probably more so than your wife does considering I don't have a second income to help support me. So YES I do understand what it's like and I obviously do think about the people involved.

Second that comment was said tongue in cheek... hence the goofy smiley face after the comment. So next time you want to call someone out on the board maybe YOU should think about that the people involved who are worse off than your wife. I started this thread to bring attention to the situation all of us new teachers face. In all seriousness I do wish your wife well as I understand her plight. I hope we both are able to find work in the coming school year but from what I've been hearing it's looking more grim than last year. Even demand for the ever so popular French teachers seems to be waning.
Sorry bout that. I may have over reacted a bit. I just get so annoyed when I hear people saying how greedy teacher are... or when some teachers ARE greedy... LOL
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da_guy2 wrote: Sorry bout that. I may have over reacted a bit. I just get so annoyed when I hear people saying how greedy teacher are... or when some teachers ARE greedy... LOL

ie. retired teachers still supply teaching.

I especially hate the way people defend the position of the retired teachers taking up jobs. It's always either:

a) they can't afford not to work - in which case then don't retire!!! I'd rather they work 260 days and make their full salary than work 90 days (supply teaching) and make the same amount (pension + supply salary) AND take a job away from me. OR

b) new teachers don't have the experience/qualifications needed for the position - THIS IS A LOAD OF CRAP! Only in a handful of cases would this be true (ex. subjects like music, French, technical classes, or special needs). The majority of new positions or supply positions aren't even for anything specialized. The only exception to that is French but there are still many qualified new French teachers out there too.

The reality is that many (not all) principals are too lazy to do a proper job search to fill a position so they just ask their buddies if they know anyone who can do the job or they ask retired teachers that have worked for them.

Mind you this phenomenon is happening pretty much in every industry with retirees taking up jobs and getting pension at the same time and it's pretty infuriating.
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jamgyu wrote: b) new teachers don't have the experience/qualifications needed for the position - THIS IS A LOAD OF CRAP! Only in a handful of cases would this be true (ex. subjects like music, French, technical classes, or special needs). The majority of new positions or supply positions aren't even for anything specialized. The only exception to that is French but there are still many qualified new French teachers out there too.
I'd say that in many cases the opposite is the case. My wife was saying that she was in with some classes with older teachers and that:

A) They are using old teaching methods that are not as good, and not recognized as part of the curriculum.

b) They can't keep up with the kids (especially in the younger grades)

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