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Performance Improvement Plan in bank - this is the way out?

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  • Feb 24th, 2020 9:30 pm
Deal Guru
Jan 27, 2006
13191 posts
6214 upvotes
Vancouver, BC
angrybanker wrote: Pretty sure that's highly illegal for an employer to disclose anything about performance. Just whether you are currently employed or not. If you find out they disclosed you were on a PIP to a prospective employer, you'd be on the winning side of a lawsuit.
Actually it's not. hence the use of reference checks with managers - there would be little reason to talk to an potential employee's manager other than to talk about their job performance. As an FYI, here's a link to the Government of Canada's website on Structured Reference Checks - Structured reference checks. In that document on page 6 of the .pdf file in a section called "What types of questions to ask?" states -
Questions about developmental needs. In order to bypass the reluctance sometimes expressed by referees to report unfavourable information about an applicant, questions on developmental needs can be asked. For example, “Are you aware of any areas that could be developed in relation to the competency?” might be asked. By emphasizing that “even the strongest applicants have improvement areas”, referees are typically more comfortable providing statements in this area. Nonetheless, questioning about more sensitive information, such as potentially-inappropriate work-related behaviour, should occur later in the interview, once sufficient rapport has been reached between the referee and the reference checker.
If it was illegal, the Government of Canada would not be instructing their staff to do in a document that is easily available on the internet.

What has been happening in the US, not necessarily in Canada, is employers are instructing their managers not to give references, not because it's illegal, but because it may open the company up to lawsuits from the employee's new employer IF something disclosed wasn't what it was - ie said employee was wondering and hard working when in fact they were always late for work and never got anything done.
Sr. Member
Jan 1, 2017
918 posts
714 upvotes
doctor80 wrote: The whole problem my friend is that they were silent the entire year and no feedback was provided.
And only couple of weeks ago my manager informed me.
How I even suppose to know without receiving feedback? What kind of practice is it, to wait for the entire year and then tell.
My gut feeling says that my team doesn't like me and I feel it.
Even though that I tried to integrate to their culture (I am white caucasian), it's really hard if you are the only one among same mentality group.
What the hell are you talking about? What does race has to do with integrating within the working environment of a Big 5 bank?

How long have you been at a big 5 bank and on this team?
Sr. Member
Sep 28, 2013
605 posts
285 upvotes
craftsman wrote: Actually it's not. hence the use of reference checks with managers - there would be little reason to talk to an potential employee's manager other than to talk about their job performance. As an FYI, here's a link to the Government of Canada's website on Structured Reference Checks - Structured reference checks. In that document on page 6 of the .pdf file in a section called "What types of questions to ask?" states -


If it was illegal, the Government of Canada would not be instructing their staff to do in a document that is easily available on the internet.

What has been happening in the US, not necessarily in Canada, is employers are instructing their managers not to give references, not because it's illegal, but because it may open the company up to lawsuits from the employee's new employer IF something disclosed wasn't what it was - ie said employee was wondering and hard working when in fact they were always late for work and never got anything done.
Good call, my mistake.
Deal Fanatic
Dec 5, 2006
6707 posts
2416 upvotes
Markham
ProductGuy wrote:
What the hell are you talking about? What does race has to do with integrating within the working environment of a Big 5 bank?

How long have you been at a big 5 bank and on this team?
If happens in alot work space. People don't say it doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Not saying it happened in OP team, just say in general

Just like we are proud of being Canadian doesn't mean there is no certain tension to certain race due to recent virus and a lot of them are Canadian
[OP]
Member
Jan 23, 2012
416 posts
110 upvotes
Aurora, ON
ProductGuy wrote: What the hell are you talking about? What does race has to do with integrating within the working environment of a Big 5 bank?

How long have you been at a big 5 bank and on this team?
Let's not go there.
All what I say is, if you are the only A nationality among majority of B nationality, the work culture becomes like the later.
That's a fact.
This has nothing to do with race. It has to do with mentality that is different.
I am again feeling isolated, despite being trying to get along with my team.
That's all.
Therefore I think that mixed environment where there is no dominant culture would be most practical.
Anyways, I made my conclusions and will continue with my career further.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Oct 16, 2008
7308 posts
2163 upvotes
Maple
ProductGuy wrote: What the hell are you talking about? What does race has to do with integrating within the working environment of a Big 5 bank?

How long have you been at a big 5 bank and on this team?
Don't go there or this thread will be shut down.
It has nothing to do with racist at big 5 banks. Actually minority is majority with banks.


OP, you should look for different job. Save your sanity, you can't function like this.
Deal Addict
Apr 7, 2011
1662 posts
310 upvotes
Look now and look external. Anyone internal will find out about the PIP and just decide to not take the risk.
So far as references go the employer will only verify duration of employment. The personal references don't need to include your current boss. But if you can't get any recent bosses to give you a reference any recruiter will flag this as a problem.
I get where you're coming from wrt to workplace culture and not fitting in. It's not just race but age, gender etc. I've been lucky with most of the teams I'm on being fairly diverse but I've seen groups where people get excluded. All I can say is try not to be completely unengaged. Most managers don't want to fire people (I've never liked it) so they will work with you.
Deal Addict
Dec 16, 2001
1664 posts
576 upvotes
Oakville
Your options are:
A. If you don't care about severance and want to improve your odds of landing another job while you still have a job: While you're on a PIP, try to land another job at another organization. Don't worry about the potential employer finding out about your PIP or contacting your manager or HR. Use your trusted colleagues (previous managers, higher ups, other colleagues) as your references.

B. If you care about severance:. Stay at the same org and let the PIP finish its course. If they let you go (very likely irrespective if you had aced the PIP and had saved and recorded evidence of meeting every single requirement in the PIP), you will receive a severance unless you stole from the org or did something very gravely stupid like leaked data or something. Then Enjoy the severance and EI while you look for work.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Jun 12, 2008
2580 posts
406 upvotes
Ancaster
Kursor17 wrote: Your options are:
A. If you don't care about severance and want to improve your odds of landing another job while you still have a job: While you're on a PIP, try to land another job at another organization. Don't worry about the potential employer finding out about your PIP or contacting your manager or HR. Use your trusted colleagues (previous managers, higher ups, other colleagues) as your references.

B. If you care about severance:. Stay at the same org and let the PIP finish its course. If they let you go (very likely irrespective if you had aced the PIP and had saved and recorded evidence of meeting every single requirement in the PIP), you will receive a severance unless you stole from the org or did something very gravely stupid like leaked data or something. Then Enjoy the severance and EI while you look for work.
As Kursor17 said, don't quit. You'll let them off easy if you do. Let them let you go without cause and you'll be compensated with severance.

It is very difficult nowadays to fire with cause due to the litigious nature of modern society. Far easier (they don't have to supply a reason) to let you go without cause and compensate you.

In the meantime start looking for another job. Don't worry about references; just use your friends at the current bank. Most businesses won't say anything other than you work there or you worked there just to stave off any possibility of getting sued for throwing you under the bus.
Newbie
Nov 30, 2011
87 posts
6 upvotes
SCARBOROUGH
I'm in a similar situation, not getting along with my manager. I've been looking to switch teams or switch departments to get away from my manager tbh. I like what I do, I like my team, but my manager and I don't jive well. He is very cheap, and very difficult person, not a people person. I personally think this is his first time managing people. But there are a few management people at my company who don't have any people management experience; some of them do well, some definitely can't do that function.
It's a big thing to change jobs, but honestly i don't see a future with my manager, I don't think he supports me (or my teammates) well. He definitely won't give good performance reviews. He definitely doesn't provide, career growth, promotions, raises etc. So its time for me to move on, I would recommend
[OP]
Member
Jan 23, 2012
416 posts
110 upvotes
Aurora, ON
surfer007 wrote: I'm in a similar situation, not getting along with my manager. I've been looking to switch teams or switch departments to get away from my manager tbh. I like what I do, I like my team, but my manager and I don't jive well. He is very cheap, and very difficult person, not a people person. I personally think this is his first time managing people. But there are a few management people at my company who don't have any people management experience; some of them do well, some definitely can't do that function.
It's a big thing to change jobs, but honestly i don't see a future with my manager, I don't think he supports me (or my teammates) well. He definitely won't give good performance reviews. He definitely doesn't provide, career growth, promotions, raises etc. So its time for me to move on, I would recommend
The problem that can arise here, is that at the moment you are being put on PIP, it's like you are being screwed, as one of the conditions to move team is not to be on PIP.
In my case I am more than 90% sure that I won't be able to switch.
It's like a mark on the face.
Once it's there , you are done.

My direction would be most likely to look in a non banking sector.
Newbie
Nov 30, 2011
87 posts
6 upvotes
SCARBOROUGH
agreed, better look outside asap. look for contract positions, they might pay better, less stable
doctor80 wrote: The problem that can arise here, is that at the moment you are being put on PIP, it's like you are being screwed, as one of the conditions to move team is not to be on PIP.
In my case I am more than 90% sure that I won't be able to switch.
It's like a mark on the face.
Once it's there , you are done.

My direction would be most likely to look in a non banking sector.
Deal Fanatic
Mar 10, 2005
8298 posts
2471 upvotes
surfer007 wrote: I'm in a similar situation, not getting along with my manager. I've been looking to switch teams or switch departments to get away from my manager tbh. I like what I do, I like my team, but my manager and I don't jive well. He is very cheap, and very difficult person, not a people person. I personally think this is his first time managing people. But there are a few management people at my company who don't have any people management experience; some of them do well, some definitely can't do that function.
It's a big thing to change jobs, but honestly i don't see a future with my manager, I don't think he supports me (or my teammates) well. He definitely won't give good performance reviews. He definitely doesn't provide, career growth, promotions, raises etc. So its time for me to move on, I would recommend
Unfortunately this is all too common. Many (even most) Mangers get the position by default, they might not even ask for it and are ill-equipped to manage 1 person let alone a team. You're ahead of the curve because you already recognized that, pretty sad because all what you mentioned above - career growth, promotions, raises, leading.....etc is basically 90% of their job duties yet they spend no time on it.
"Leaders who don't listen will eventually be surrounded by people who have nothing to say"

"There are no bad teams, only bad leaders.”
Member
Nov 10, 2013
310 posts
203 upvotes
Richmond Hill, ON
There's a bit of incorrect info in this thread.

Yes, if they put you on PIP, most likely they lay the ground work for letting you go.
I assume your last year's performance review was bad.

Don't panic, this is not the end of the world.

Even if they terminate your employment for bad performance, this is NOT a termination with cause.
They will pay severance pay.
The severance depends on your age and how long you were there.
Big banks readily offer 3 weeks pay per year of service and will go to 4 without you hiring a lawyer.

If you're lucky, you will find another job just in time, collect severance (may be reduced to 75% if you choose lump sum instead of salary continuance).

So keep your head down (it's only 3 months), look for another job.
If you were litigious person, you could stop showing up to work, claim constructive dismissal.
You'd need a lawyer to guide you through.

You new employer MAY ask for a letter of termination or a record of employment, be prepared to handle this.

You can try talking to your bosses boss, it's unlikely to work, but miracles happen.

If there any violations of human rights or even code of conduct of your employer by your present manager, you may have leverage.


Good luck. There's light in the end of this tunnel, it's called retirement ;)

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