Personal Finance

Please, help me to pull the plug!

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  • Dec 28th, 2016 3:48 pm
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bizee-bee wrote: I'm not sure what you mean. It reports to both bureaus as a new tradeline. In the Equifax Dashboard it lists under the "Other" category, vs regular credit cards which are listed under "Revolving". There is a utilization ratio for both categories. I've noticed before when a single tradeline reports for either category, the score drops much more significantly if it's very high. And if you don't pre-pay your first Amex charge card before the first statement cycles, it will report with say a balance of $5100 and a high limit of $5100, or even $1200 balance and $1200 high limit...both will be 100% utililzation for that single tradeline, and the score has a higher dent in the score, compared to pre-paying them down EARLY so that there is only say $240 of $5100, or say $100 of $1200.

It 'probably' takes a couple of months for the score to recover after you've paid the balance off anyways, but as mentioned I have so many things happening in my file that it's hard to tell how long it really takes...and yes, I'm still also still using the free HD supplied subscription to Equifax (2+ years now), so I do tend to generate a new report on a near-daily routine. Others with fewer tradelines can probably comment better on how long exactly the score takes to recover, but my guess would be a maximum of 4-6 months, assuming you've continued to have less than 30% monthly utilization on that charge card, and of course you're paying it off in full before the due date.

Getting back to you - good luck with your credit file, and with pulling the plug. I would think that having the subcriptions through Mogo.ca or Ratehub should be good enough for your Equifax report, and CreditKarma.ca for your Transunion report. Though the scores from all of these are all across the board with a wide gap in some instances, you can at least monitor the activity for your credit profile.
Everything you stated about the AMEX charge card has proven correct. It reported as an "open" account in the same category as my cell phone trade. The high credit/credit limit reported was the highest posted balance on my account. This was true for both Transunion and Equifax. It knocked 1 point off my transunion score and 16 off of my Equifax score based on $245/$1516 (balance/highcredit).
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bewiseman wrote: Everything you stated about the AMEX charge card has proven correct. It reported as an "open" account in the same category as my cell phone trade. The high credit/credit limit reported was the highest posted balance on my account. This was true for both Transunion and Equifax. It knocked 1 point off my transunion score and 16 off of my Equifax score based on $245/$1516 (balance/highcredit).
Thanks for re-affirming my datapoints. Not sure why your EQ score dropped so much more compared to TU with the new reported tradeline. Were you able to track how much your TU score had dropped when Amex pulled your credit file from it during your application? Perhaps TU dropped less, because it already had dropped your score previously from the pull? I'm unsure.
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bizee-bee wrote: Thanks for re-affirming my datapoints. Not sure why your EQ score dropped so much more compared to TU with the new reported tradeline. Were you able to track how much your TU score had dropped when Amex pulled your credit file from it during your application? Perhaps TU dropped less, because it already had dropped your score previously from the pull? I'm unsure.
Transunion never moves in any significant way. It has been stuck in the same 20 point range for almost 4 years. Equifax always kicks me hard with new accounts. The report lists low average age and two many new accounts in the last two years as the two main points pulling down my score. Adding this account with AMEX, reduced the average age from 2 years/4 months to 2 years/3 months. 13 of 17 accounts are less than 3 years old. 9 of 17 are less than two years. 5 of 17 are less than one year. One 4.5 year old 30 day late. Everything else is positive. Score drops to 650.

I got to stop adding new accounts. That's why I got dinged with 16 point on the new AMEX account.
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bewiseman wrote: Transunion never moves in any significant way. It has been stuck in the same 20 point range for almost 4 years. Equifax always kicks me hard with new accounts. The report lists low average age and two many new accounts in the last two years as the two main points pulling down my score. Adding this account with AMEX, reduced the average age from 2 years/4 months to 2 years/3 months. 13 of 17 accounts are less than 3 years old. 9 of 17 are less than two years. 5 of 17 are less than one year. One 4.5 year old 30 day late. Everything else is positive. Score drops to 650.

I got to stop adding new accounts. That's why I got dinged with 16 point on the new AMEX account.
I'd never tracked my TU score before, until Credit Karma became available, just last month. I realize that its score may be different from the one that TU provides directly, just like Mogo and RateHub are widely different for my EQ score (they both have me over 800!), as compared to what I see directly at Equifax.ca, but it's of interest to me as a churner to see the relative movements within each reporting service, if any.

For the past 3 years I've been watching my EQ profile/score on a near-daily basis and I can see that each new pull at EQ only drops my score from 0-2 points. Each new tradeline was about 1-6 points a year ago, but lately (past half year'ish) I only see a drop of 0-2 points. I've added over 60 new trades in 3.5 years, and my AAoA is still close to 6 years, and a lot of it is due to Amex reporting several of my new cards with my original Member Since Date as the opening date (they stopped this reporting practice last year, unfortunately).

Anyways, getting back to your topic...do you need to pay so much close-attention to your score? No.
But, as part of a churning hobby, it's a definite nice-to-have. ;)
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bizee-bee wrote: I'd never tracked my TU score before, until Credit Karma became available, just last month. I realize that its score may be different from the one that TU provides directly, just like Mogo and RateHub are widely different for my EQ score (they both have me over 800!), as compared to what I see directly at Equifax.ca, but it's of interest to me as a churner to see the relative movements within each reporting service, if any.

For the past 3 years I've been watching my EQ profile/score on a near-daily basis and I can see that each new pull at EQ only drops my score from 0-2 points. Each new tradeline was about 1-6 points a year ago, but lately (past half year'ish) I only see a drop of 0-2 points. I've added over 60 new trades in 3.5 years, and my AAoA is still close to 6 years, and a lot of it is due to Amex reporting several of my new cards with my original Member Since Date as the opening date (they stopped this reporting practice last year, unfortunately).

Anyways, getting back to your topic...do you need to pay so much close-attention to your score? No.
But, as part of a churning hobby, it's a definite nice-to-have. ;)
Wow, I can't fathom 60 accounts I'd like to apply for in that period of time. I also can't imagine having to maintain all of that and keep everything up to date. I guess you maintain a spreadsheet of all the due dates. I've made a point of closing all unused accounts. Currently, I have a total 8 open accounts ( 1 car loan, 1 phone, 1 charge card, 1 line of credit, and 4 credit cards).

I think with 800 + score and all the churning you do, you don't have to care about your score. Its more important for me with a low average age and score of only 650. Of course, if allow my account to age so that the AAoA is 6 years like yours, I suspect I'd also be flirting with 800.
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bewiseman wrote: Everything you stated about the AMEX charge card has proven correct. It reported as an "open" account in the same category as my cell phone trade. The high credit/credit limit reported was the highest posted balance on my account. This was true for both Transunion and Equifax. It knocked 1 point off my transunion score and 16 off of my Equifax score based on $245/$1516 (balance/highcredit).
What do you mean exactly by "highest posted balance". Do you mean 'posted' to a statement? Or do you mean the highest balance you saw online over the course of the statement cycle?
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bewiseman wrote: Wow, I can't fathom 60 accounts I'd like to apply for in that period of time. I also can't imagine having to maintain all of that and keep everything up to date. I guess you maintain a spreadsheet of all the due dates. I've made a point of closing all unused accounts. Currently, I have a total 8 open accounts ( 1 car loan, 1 phone, 1 charge card, 1 line of credit, and 4 credit cards).

I think with 800 + score and all the churning you do, you don't have to care about your score. Its more important for me with a low average age and score of only 650. Of course, if allow my account to age so that the AAoA is 6 years like yours, I suspect I'd also be flirting with 800.
Well can you fathom say, 10 accounts you'd want to get free bonus points out of ... and then repeat that every 6-8 months ... there you go 60 accounts :D
POLL: How frequent is your RRSP-matching?
Plastiq: Pay any bill with credit card for 0-2.5% fee (help meet min spending and keep old cards active!)
Rewards program transfer times (e.g. SPG->Aeroplan, Marriott->SPG, Amex MR->SPG...)
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Jul 18, 2016
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ace604 wrote: Well can you fathom say, 10 accounts you'd want to get free bonus points out of ... and then repeat that every 6-8 months ... there you go 60 accounts :D
Yes, ok. I'll wait till my score is in the high 700s before I play that game. I can't get away with that right now.
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ace604 wrote: What do you mean exactly by "highest posted balance". Do you mean 'posted' to a statement? Or do you mean the highest balance you saw online over the course of the statement cycle?
I meant the highest posted balance I saw posted online. I hit $1516 a week or so before the statement was issued ( or whenever I mentioned it earlier in this thread). The final statement balance was $245. This was the first statement. My understanding is that the high limit will always be the highest "ever" posted balance.
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So, to over-reiterate...

It's the highest online balance that you would ever see at Amex.ca during the month, not necessarily what you see as the final balance on the statement cycling date.

As example, everyday you log into Amex.ca, and make a note of the current balance. If you choose to whittle away at it with pre-payments during the month then this number will go up and down, but whatever was the highest that was ever noted online during the month, that will potentially be the new high-limit that is reported by Amex to the bureaus after the next cycle date.

Though I do pay attention to the balance that is posted at the statement date, ensuring it is at around 10%, I've never had a need to control how large/low I want that reported high-limit value to be, but I suppose others who need to be aware of their debt/service ratios may want to look into that. Nearly all of my Amex Charge cards will eventually be cancelled anyways, and so it won't contribute to my active total limits - though I'm having a shift in philosophies lately and may hang onto a couple. ;)
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bewiseman wrote: Glad I'm not the only one with this issue. I've learned a lot because of this, but I know now that its a bit of an addiction. Equifax seems to be sending me a quiet message to cancel their service. Their access to my report has been down for 3 days now, and they've always been very very slow on their website.
Go with creditkarma then, it's free but doesn't go as in depth if you will as equifax. Either way it's free and updates your score regularly.

I checked mine for the first time a couple weeks ago after about 13 years of having credit without issues. My score is/was 730. Now it's 718 due to me utilizing almost the full amount of room on one cc (max $2500) for a couple items I purchased + car insurance for the year @ 1800. I paid it at the exact same time it was in Authorized charges, but posted before my actual payment went through and it just so happened to be at that reporting time as well which is what dropped me a bit. Not that I really care as I have never once been denied credit either.
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vkizzle wrote: I actually just got this card and good timing, being it's holdiay season+Christmas to help me get to the $5K spending.
From what I understand, there is no limit reported to the bureaus (AMEX reports to TransUnuion, so I can't confirm myself with Equifax) and does not affect your overall utilization.
Wow, they are incredibly quick with applying the $300 (30,000 points) bonus. The very same day that they posted the transaction that pushed me over the 5K spending requirement, they applied the bonus. Thanks for the Christmas bonus AMEX!. With my AMEX Gold from scotia, I had to wait over 4 statements for the $300 bonus!
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bewiseman wrote: Wow, they are incredibly quick with applying the $300 (30,000 points) bonus. The very same day that they posted the transaction that pushed me over the 5K spending requirement, they applied the bonus. Thanks for the Christmas bonus AMEX!. With my AMEX Gold from scotia, I had to wait over 4 statements for the $300 bonus!
Only 30k? Business Gold? If you got a referral you should get 40k instead. It's also worth more than 1c per MR point if you can transfer and use with various partner programs like SPG (Starwood hotels, or from there to Marriott), or airline partners like Aeroplan or Avios, etc. 1c is the absolute minimum value if you just use the points towards (travel) purchases on your card. If you have Business Platinum you can apply the points at 1c value to any purchase on your card, not just travel. I still wouldn't do that though since I'd hold out for at least 50% more value with a partner transfer.

e.g. 30k MR (2:1) -> 15k SPG (1:3) -> 45k MRP (marriot rewards points)

Check out what kind of hotels you can stay at at spg.com for 15k or at marriotrewards.com for 45k points. You might find more value than $300.
Same with a flight redemption for 25k with Avios or Aeroplan.
POLL: How frequent is your RRSP-matching?
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ace604 wrote: Only 30k? Business Gold? If you got a referral you should get 40k instead. It's also worth more than 1c per MR point if you can transfer and use with various partner programs like SPG (Starwood hotels, or from there to Marriott), or airline partners like Aeroplan or Avios, etc. 1c is the absolute minimum value if you just use the points towards (travel) purchases on your card. If you have Business Platinum you can apply the points at 1c value to any purchase on your card, not just travel. I still wouldn't do that though since I'd hold out for at least 50% more value with a partner transfer.

e.g. 30k MR (2:1) -> 15k SPG (1:3) -> 45k MRP (marriot rewards points)

Check out what kind of hotels you can stay at at spg.com for 15k or at marriotrewards.com for 45k points. You might find more value than $300.
Same with a flight redemption for 25k with Avios or Aeroplan.
Thanks for the heads up. No hurry to apply the points. I'll collect the points for a while and then turn it into a trip for my family.

Yes, only 30K point bonus. There was no referral. I got a phone call from them shortly after I cancelled my AMEX SimplyCash, offering the Business Gold. I was actually rather reluctant to accept offer since I expected to be refused in the end when they analyzed my profile given that I carry a tone of debt on balance transfers for investing. Does AMEX still make it possible to cancel their card and apply again several months later to collect another bonus?
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bewiseman wrote: Thanks for the heads up. No hurry to apply the points. I'll collect the points for a while and then turn it into a trip for my family.

Yes, only 30K point bonus. There was no referral. I got a phone call from them shortly after I cancelled my AMEX SimplyCash, offering the Business Gold. I was actually rather reluctant to accept offer since I expected to be refused in the end when they analyzed my profile given that I carry a tone of debt on balance transfers for investing. Does AMEX still make it possible to cancel their card and apply again several months later to collect another bonus?
See Jerry's thread for all the info. Churning is still possible but also could be YMMV.

You can self-refer from Business Gold to Personal Gold and get a 10k referral bonus plus 25k signup bonus with first year free. If you hold off 9-10 months to do this you can extend your "forced" usage of the MR points out for another year. Of course you can extend it indefinitely if you rinse and repeat through the other cards as well and cycle back to these ones again later.
POLL: How frequent is your RRSP-matching?
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ace604 wrote: See Jerry's thread for all the info. Churning is still possible but also could be YMMV.

You can self-refer from Business Gold to Personal Gold and get a 10k referral bonus plus 25k signup bonus with first year free. If you hold off 9-10 months to do this you can extend your "forced" usage of the MR points out for another year. Of course you can extend it indefinitely if you rinse and repeat through the other cards as well and cycle back to these ones again later.
You've got me pondering again this idea of using my AMEX with plastiq ( double points because they are listed as my supplier) to pay off my car loan. With a fee of 2.5% fee minus the 0.5% cost of car loan, this looks like a dead loss of 2%. However, I collect 2% in AMEX rewards. If I can do better than 1$/100 points, there would be a net benefit to paying off my car loan this way given that I have the 21K cash to pay it in full.
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bewiseman wrote: You've got me pondering again this idea of using my AMEX with plastiq ( double points because they are listed as my supplier) to pay off my car loan. With a fee of 2.5% fee minus the 0.5% cost of car loan, this looks like a dead loss of 2%. However, I collect 2% in AMEX rewards. If I can do better than 1$/100 points, there would be a net benefit to paying off my car loan this way given that I have the 21K cash to pay it in full.
I used Plastiq to pay part of my property taxes at 2% fee, and add in the 1.5% that I could have earned if I used my Canadian Tire MC, it was a total of 3.5% cost for me - so the 2x MR earning was effectively costing me 1.5%. It's peanuts, and totally worth it to hit the $5K spending and thus the 40K welcome points.
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bizee-bee wrote: I used Plastiq to pay part of my property taxes at 2% fee, and add in the 1.5% that I could have earned if I used my Canadian Tire MC, it was a total of 3.5% cost for me - so the 2x MR earning was effectively costing me 1.5%. It's peanuts, and totally worth it to hit the $5K spending and thus the 40K welcome points.
I've already hit the 5K. I'm just looking for extras now. :)
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bewiseman wrote: I've already hit the 5K. I'm just looking for extras now. :)
Well, if it's a washout (net 0 or even a bit less) then go for it. You'd be earning points for something that you otherwise wouldn't have if paying through other means (i.e. non-CC). It's the same for me with the Can Tire MC...earning cash back for stuff I otherwise would have used bank online debit payments towards. Into my 4th campaign with this card, and have earned ~$400, $900 and $550 in cashback, versus earning $0 in the past for the same types of payments! It's not a churning card, but man, is it ever FUN to own. :D

edit* - Ok, I've been asked by PM to further clarify. The CT MC is only (primarily) used to pay for things that OTHER CCs CANNOT pay towards or without a fee involved, such as my multiple property taxes, utilities, university tuitions, student loans repayments, etc. Otherwise, I'm whipping out an Amex, TD, CIBC, etc to pay for normal purchases.
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bizee-bee wrote: Well, if it's a washout (net 0 or even a bit less) then go for it. You'd be earning points for something that you otherwise wouldn't have if paying through other means (i.e. non-CC). It's the same for me with the Can Tire MC...earning cash back for stuff I otherwise would have used bank online debit payments towards. Into my 4th campaign with this card, and have earned ~$400, $900 and $550 in cashback, versus earning $0 in the past for the same types of payments! It's not a churning card, but man, is it ever FUN to own. :D
Yes, I like the Canadian Tire Card as well. They're incredibly generous with credit limits as well. Started with 2.5K three years ago. Up to 17.5K now.

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