Pre Existing Damage and Fender Bender

There is a word, and I forget what it is, that insurance companies use to talk about pre-existing damage but I honestly forget the specific word. Basically, they are not paying for damage that was not caused by the accident and they are not paying for the same damage twice. If you have evidence that the damage was pre-existing, then the other driver would be committing fraud by claiming otherwise and I highly doubt their insurance company would look kindly on that.

I assume the problem is, the other driver wants you to pay cash rather than go through insurance. This is a problem because your choices are to either:
a) Pay them to go away
b) Go through insurance, risk them deciding some of the damage was not pre-existing, and raising your rates as this is an at fault accident (you mention "negligible", which to me indicates that there is some damage)

What is comes down to is, are you willing to take the risk that you may be dinged with an at fault accident on your record to "do the right thing"? Because it sounds like there is some damage from the collision, and you will be responsible for that at a minimum (even if it is only $100). Sometimes doing what is "right" and sticking by your morals (of not getting shafted) costs more. It's up to you whether it's worth it.

^ I think this is good advice. You're in a tough spot -- if the other driver goes through insurance, you will almost certainly be dinged with an at-fault collision on your record. This will likely cost you significantly (unless you have accident forgiveness) -- one way of determining how much this could cost you is to use an on-line insurance quote site (e.g. Kanetix) and get two separate quotes for yourself: one WITH and one WITHOUT this at-fault collision. You probably won't like the results... and remember that an at-fault collision stays on your record for several years. Ultimately, you may need to come prepared to make a "final offer" to the other driver and ask them to take-it or leave-it...

no need to admit you are at fault, it's up to police or insurance to decide.

ask the other driver to get three quotes: fix new damage only, fix old damage only and fix all damages, then negotiate the cost sharing of difference, try not go through insurance, pretty sure the other driver didn't want to, they may have to explain the old damage.

I do have accident forgiveness on my policy. The mishap took place in a parking lot, which my broker tells me are generally assigned at 50-50 fault. I don't see how the other driver would benefit in going through insurance as it would result in an at fault on their record. When I said 'negligible' in relation to damage it was because I figured it would sound non believable to say 'none' At the time, we took photos, which I still have that show nothing but pre existing damage. I even felt the bumper with my hand and could not feel any scuffs, scratches or dents. It was a total non issue. Last night there was a voicemail saying a new bumper was required. I left them one saying please send me the pics they took at the scene because my pictures do not show any damage.

How would their insurance know it was a fraud unless they talk to me and see my pictures?

If the other driver go through insurance, your insurance will be notified and contact you to get your side of story.

Not all parking lot collision is 50 50,refer to insurance act, lmk if you need the link can't post on mobile.

link:
http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statut ... 0i08_e.htm

darthbenji wrote: ↑I do have accident forgiveness on my policy. The mishap took place in a parking lot, which my broker tells me are generally assigned at 50-50 fault. I don't see how the other driver would benefit in going through insurance as it would result in an at fault on their record. When I said 'negligible' in relation to damage it was because I figured it would sound non believable to say 'none' At the time, we took photos, which I still have that show nothing but pre existing damage. I even felt the bumper with my hand and could not feel any scuffs, scratches or dents. It was a total non issue. Last night there was a voicemail saying a new bumper was required. I left them one saying please send me the pics they took at the scene because my pictures do not show any damage.

How would their insurance know it was a fraud unless they talk to me and see my pictures?

By the way, not every accident in a parking lot is 50/50. Yes your broker may have said that, but if you rear ended someone in the parking lot it's still your fault.

It's your word against theirs. Just pay them what they want for a new bumper and chalk it up to a learning experience.

Save your accident forgiveness for another day.

DJ_Peanuts22 wrote: ↑It's your word against theirs. Just pay them what they want for a new bumper and chalk it up to a learning experience.

Save your accident forgiveness for another day.

How is it my word against theirs? We both took photos at the time, none of which show any damage. My photos show the other party taking photos, so they can't say they don't exist. Now a new bumper is apparently required and they are sending me the estimate on Monday. Why would I not take it straight to the police and make a complaint of fraud? Or should I simply ask what amount am I expected to pay based on the pre existing damage. I just don't see how forking over the money solves anything, when it is total BS.

If you're going to use insurance, make sure to let the insurance company know about the betterment the other party would gain.

emperors6 wrote: ↑If you're going to use insurance, make sure to let the insurance company know about the betterment the other party would gain.

I will. When they present me with an estimate for the entire bumper and indicate they expect me to pay the full amount, I will suggest we let the police handle it since the damage according to them is now beyond $1000 and that I suspect a fraud is taking place.

darthbenji wrote: ↑I will. When they present me with an estimate for the entire bumper and indicate they expect me to pay the full amount, I will suggest we let the police handle it since the damage according to them is now beyond $1000 and that I suspect a fraud is taking place.

You indicate above that you are at fault for the collision. Therefore, if you upset the other driver by accusing them of fraud there are two outcomes:
1) They go through insurance, you foot the bill for your deductible and higher rates
2) They are scared off and do nothing

I would assume most would do #1. There is nothing wrong with them wanting to settle with you for a new bumper, there is no fraud. There is something wrong with them going through insurance and saying "no preexisting damage" when there was. The fact that they have not done this yet means they have done nothing wrong - yet. Your threat of going to the police is actually empty; it is a civil matter and they can ask whatever they want.

darthbenji wrote: ↑I will. When they present me with an estimate for the entire bumper and indicate they expect me to pay the full amount, I will suggest we let the police handle it since the damage according to them is now beyond $1000 and that I suspect a fraud is taking place.

The police won't handle any "fraud" case as it's between the other driver and his/her insurance company. At the end of the day, if it's your fault, it doesn't matter about the other guy. It's still your fault.

TrevorK wrote: ↑You indicate above that you are at fault for the collision. Therefore, if you upset the other driver by accusing them of fraud there are two outcomes:
1) They go through insurance, you foot the bill for your deductible and higher rates
2) They are scared off and do nothing

I would assume most would do #1. There is nothing wrong with them wanting to settle with you for a new bumper, there is no fraud. There is something wrong with them going through insurance and saying "no preexisting damage" when there was. The fact that they have not done this yet means they have done nothing wrong - yet. Your threat of going to the police is actually empty; it is a civil matter and they can ask whatever they want.

Except I'd have no deductible since I have no claim. There is no damage to my car. How is demanding more than you're entitled to from an insurance company wrong but demanding it from a citizen not wrong? I mean doesn't it boil down to 'buy me a new bumper or I'll try to screw your insurance rates'?

darthbenji wrote: ↑Except I'd have no deductible since I have no claim. There is no damage to my car. How is demanding more than you're entitled to from an insurance company wrong but demanding it from a citizen not wrong? I mean doesn't it boil down to 'buy me a new bumper or I'll try to screw your insurance rates'?

And there's nothing wrong with that. You need to gauge whether the increase in insurance premiums are worth paying that x amount of money out. The fact that he even gave you a chance to pay instead of going through insurance is already one lucky break for you.

Whether the guy's insurance company will pay that x amount out to him doesn't affect you.

So let's say the person had no pre existing damage. So we both take pictures of their pristine bumper and agree there is no damage. A week later the person calls and says 'buy me snow tires or I'm calling my insurance'. Do you still say pay up?

Isn't the appropriate thing for this person to do if they make a claim is to say 'I drove into something and caused this damage here to my bumper. I had another incident that did not contribute to the damage'?

definitely call your insurance and see what they say , that guy is definitely taking advantage of the situation

darthbenji wrote: ↑So let's say the person had no pre existing damage. So we both take pictures of their pristine bumper and agree there is no damage. A week later the person calls and says 'buy me snow tires or I'm calling my insurance'. Do you still say pay up?

Isn't the appropriate thing for this person to do if they make a claim is to say 'I drove into something and caused this damage here to my bumper. I had another incident that did not contribute to the damage'?

That's different. The guy isn't asking for snow tires. He's claiming that there's damage. You have the right not to pay him. No one is forcing you to pay him other than the fact that the accident is your fault.

There is nothing you can do here. You either pay him the money he is asking for or go through insurance. Going to the police and complaining isn't going to get you anywhere, as you're at fault here. Yes, the other driver's being a five letter word, but at the end of the day you hit him and therefore you're lucky he's not going straight to insurance.

eklok wrote: ↑definitely call your insurance and see what they say , that guy is definitely taking advantage of the situation

The OP's insurance isn't going to do anything, since it's no-fault, except place an at-fault accident on the OP's record.

joepoonie wrote: ↑That's different. The guy isn't asking for snow tires. He's claiming that there's damage. You have the right not to pay him. No one is forcing you to pay him other than the fact that the accident is your fault.

There is nothing you can do here. You either pay him the money he is asking for or go through insurance. Going to the police and complaining isn't going to get you anywhere, as you're at fault here. Yes, the other driver's being a five letter word, but at the end of the day you hit him and therefore you're lucky he's not going straight to insurance.



The OP's insurance isn't going to do anything, since it's no-fault, except place an at-fault accident on the OP's record.

Alright, I'm going to offer to pay a nuisance amount bearing in mind the pre exist damage. I will also advise that if the nuisance amount is rejected that I will contact their insurance company and advise them of the unreported damage that existed prior to our incident.