PS5 vs Xbox vs PC debate thread

jeffyjaixx wrote: ↑ We can share the GPU even if we want to play the same game at the same time to coop? Yeah Brazil VPN trick is the cheapest now. Not turkey anymore.

It was $140.xx plus $1.13 for the GPU conversion.

Caerus wrote: ↑ I'm mocking the term. I never dismissed anything regarding the scale. I stand by "organic growth" as a stupid marketing term. Just like Apple uses wording like "magic" and "courage". "Courage" when they took away the headphone jack, conveniently when they had Beats and had wireless headphones/earbuds on the market. Or saying they were "thinking of the environment" when they took away including a phone charger in the box. Business decisions, hidden behind positive wording, to change the perception for the public.

The AB deal was Phil Spencer doing what was necessary to survive in the coming 10 - 20 years. Lets also not forget that this was AB who was approaching others, looking to be bought. MS didn't go to them first.

But, this is bigger than consoles. I see it as Phil thinking, "Okay this is the direction the market and industry are going potentially post console. We need to be prepared, and one of the leaders when that transition happens."

Look up https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embracer_Group and what they've been doing just recently as well.



Now just going back to consoles, Sony tried to do to Xbox, what they did to SEGA. Try to strong arm them out of the industry. Buying exclusivity deals, paying to just keep everything they could off Xbox, charging publishers extra if they made games for PS4 and Xbox, fighting against cross platform, and trying to convince everyone that Xbox was an evil invader. Playstation literally entered the market by throwing money around, paying for exclusivity deals, and publishing. They also tried to own all Nintendo properties released on the SNES CD as well. They were, and have been ruthless in their approach to market dominance. SEGA didn't have the money to survive and compete with Sony, Xbox obviously did, despite almost folding last gen.

Everyone in this industry has been playing dirty. I'm not suddenly going to feel bad for Sony now that competition has taken off around them.

Tencent, Facebook Gaming, Amazon, Google, Embracer Group, Microsoft, etc. It's competition of titans. If Sony had the capital they'd be in it as well.

BernardRyder wrote: ↑ To paraphrase CFRTim, marketing is a thing. I also have to wonder when the Console Wars of the 2020's are over and MS is standing over the bodies of the vanquished, what the revisionist narrative of the Bethesda deal will be? They were looking for a small investment by a kindly benefactor since they ran into a unforseen rough patch My point is, although it is likely true that Activision was looking, it's hard to separate the reason to the situation that led to it. They started looking when stock dropped, which was after the Sexual Harrassment issues according to
Pure Xbox through Bloomberg. Not many other buyers were in play besides Meta, who are also on the same level of Microsoft rich.

And come now, you can't seriously try and paint Sony as the big bad kiiller of Sega? Maybe Sony helped push them when they were on the brink, but Nintendo did all the dirty work beforehand. I'd love to see where Sony coined Xbox the evil invader too, quite creative Also, when Xbox arrived, Sony nabbed all the exclusives? So what about the OG Xbox taking Conker (and more importantly Rare) from Nintendo? Ninja Gaiden from Nintendo? Oddworld from Sony? KOTOR as an Xbox exclusive? And evil multiverse Sony is sending you a 'You're Welcome' for singlehandedly killing SEGA, because that sent all their exclusives to Xbox instead of either of their former Japanese competition. Now back to this side of the Pacific, Apple would like to remind Xbox apologists that they and Bungie had a long and great relationship. In fact, they were about to release an innovative little game called HALO that would make the world see that Apple computers could game just as well as Windows PC's. But something funny happened on the way to the iMac...

None of this is apologist to Sony either. And of course Sony throwing some money around when Xbox arrived sounds like the right approach to try and scrub out a new competitor early on. That's just business, which is not an Xbox exclusive. And remind me again, it took how many gens of the Xbox to almost fold? And this was all because of Sony's ruthless approach, not because of Xbox's screw-up at a time that even had their own fanbase turn away?
You spin a fantastical tale of Xbox woe and Sony ruthlessness, but it doesn't hold up under factual scrutiny.

I get what you're saying, business is business obviously, I've understood that for a very long time. Things change, new things come along, circle of life. But the attitude of some Twitter people, and in turn people here saying stop picking on poor Microsoft, Sony is more bad, is disturbing. One being Bad doesn't make the other Good. But this could actually be Bad for all of us. Xbox peeps, you know those GP subs will have to go up at some point, more games might be available but the cost of all that content and people.making it will reflect in the price at some point. When it happens, and without evil Sony as a competitor, I hope it's not too large a shock.

I see this for what it is - two big corporations with eyes on profit. Both are Bad, and neither is going to look after our wallets. But if this leads to Sony exiting consoles, there will be no advantage here to gamers. Don't demonize Sony as a reason to justify Xbox, enjoy your console and cheap GP while you can. Sure Sony can be a ruthless competitor, but don't let Xbox having Nice Guy Phil in charge make you forget what this might lead to.

Caerus wrote: ↑ You seem to project doom and gloom if Xbox takes over.

What has Sony and Jim Ryan already demonstrated as market leader right now?

Raised the price of all their games to $70.
Charges $10 for resolution bumps.
"Dual Entitlement"
Consolidated all digital purchases through their 1 online portal which they have total control of.
Attempted to close their online shops, reopen them, and now are slowly closing ways to purchase again.
Treating their indie devs terribly, charging thousands just for online exposure.
Fought against cross platform play, and charged publishers and devs extra if they wanted to implement it.
and on and on.

But that's all fine and dandy. It's if Xbox becomes leader, then we actually have to worry.

Sony running the show hasn't exactly been good for anyone. They make good games, but their business practices have been terrible. I'm not going to project how things would be if Xbox became the leader. But, I can already see how things are not good as it is right now under Sony dominance. They would have been even worse were it not for massive public outcry at various points in time.

Comparing the ecosystems of XSX and PS5, I know I wouldn't want to be locked into how Sony currently does things. Maybe it will be better or worse if Xbox took the lead, but based on what's being offered right now, Xbox is much more pro consumer. But I expect both Sony and Xbox to continue along in the console space, and neither exiting any time soon.

BernardRyder wrote: ↑ Whataboutism doesn't diminish facts though. Sony isn't an angel here, but taking the stance of poor Xbox doesn't equate either.

Again, all your listicle points just function to demonize Sony, as if they are issues exclusive to them, or they invented these issues since the PlayStation's conception. How do you always manage to see it black and white?

Too exhaustive a list to go point by point but:

This gen's games (and point of clarification, not ALL PlayStation games) were also raised $10 by EA, Take-Two, ACTIVISION, but there is a trend for some in this thread to only be able to form the the words "Sony" with their mouths when it comes to this practice. In fact I believe it was EA that announced it first, but that's too hard to say I guess.
And seriously, "Consolidated digital purchases through one online portal" has been around since at least Steam. Who doesn't do that would be a shorter answer.
And please be aware, Microsoft also charges a lot for indie exposure. I highly doubt the story shared by some sour indie devs is exclusive to Sony, but true their treatment of devs might not be as robust as Xbox. That doesn't mean they're treating them terribly, that's you inserting hyperbole. The only place where it is done somewhat correctly is Steam, but even that system doesn't make everyone happy.

Let's link all the Bad to Sony instead of recognizing some of these things as industry issues. An industry Sony is in to make money.

You're personalizing a Corporation, which is incorrect since Corporations are an immoral entity. They owe is nothing and have no obligation to not lie, cheat, steal, or make money any way they can. Sony hasn't been "running" console gaming anyway, Nintendo has for the last few decades.
And take a step back from your statement about Sony running the show badly - so how's that working for you? Cheap GamePass, a console you like, tons of games, competition between rivals. This is your worst-case scenario right now? Remind me who's doom and gloom again?

These sort of arguments just lend to the general Microsoft Good/Sony Bad narrative. Am I Doom and Gloom? I've admitted I possibly am in another post. What I can't fathom is how people here ascribe to loving console games and good deals, and at the same time aren't showing much concern over the Activision deal. Even if you don't care I can somewhat get that, but why are some people so quick to defend all MS and demonize all Sony?

Caerus wrote: ↑

BernardRyder wrote: ↑ Whataboutism doesn't diminish facts though. Sony isn't an angel here, but taking the stance of poor Xbox doesn't equate either.

Again, all your listicle points just function to demonize Sony, as if they are issues exclusive to them, or they invented these issues since the PlayStation's conception. How do you always manage to see it black and white?

Too exhaustive a list to go point by point but:

This gen's games (and point of clarification, not ALL PlayStation games) were also raised $10 by EA, Take-Two, ACTIVISION, but there is a trend for some in this thread to only be able to form the the words "Sony" with their mouths when it comes to this practice. In fact I believe it was EA that announced it first, but that's too hard to say I guess.
And seriously, "Consolidated digital purchases through one online portal" has been around since at least Steam. Who doesn't do that would be a shorter answer.
And please be aware, Microsoft also charges a lot for indie exposure. I highly doubt the story shared by some sour indie devs is exclusive to Sony, but true their treatment of devs might not be as robust as Xbox. That doesn't mean they're treating them terribly, that's you inserting hyperbole. The only place where it is done somewhat correctly is Steam, but even that system doesn't make everyone happy.

Let's link all the Bad to Sony instead of recognizing some of these things as industry issues. An industry Sony is in to make money.

You're personalizing a Corporation, which is incorrect since Corporations are an immoral entity. They owe is nothing and have no obligation to not lie, cheat, steal, or make money any way they can. Sony hasn't been "running" console gaming anyway, Nintendo has for the last few decades.
And take a step back from your statement about Sony running the show badly - so how's that working for you? Cheap GamePass, a console you like, tons of games, competition between rivals. This is your worst-case scenario right now? Remind me who's doom and gloom again?

These sort of arguments just lend to the general Microsoft Good/Sony Bad narrative. Am I Doom and Gloom? I've admitted I possibly am in another post. What I can't fathom is how people here ascribe to loving console games and good deals, and at the same time aren't showing much concern over the Activision deal. Even if you don't care I can somewhat get that, but why are some people so quick to defend all MS and demonize all Sony?

jeffyjaixx wrote: ↑ Good points.

In fact, what we are seeing today from Microsoft is the result of Sony being the market leader. It is pushing Microsoft to do better and be competitive this gen which we see in Gamepass and also buying up 2 major publishers. I hope that this will in turn push Sony to do better as well and realize the pressure but if Microsoft keeps buying up publishers by opening up the wallet, I don't know if it's such a good idea to turn this into an all out bidding war across the gaming industry.

jeffyjaixx wrote: ↑

quicksilver7 wrote: ↑ Umm he better toughen up...get popular become target. Duh.

It’s hardly just a couple of moneyhats though. Sony have been signing exclusivity deals relentlessly all last generation, and they’ve done them largely unanswered as a result of both Xbox having a weaker market position making it cheaper for them to do, but also because the practice of signing them is widely accepted for them, but not for MS.

There’s a reason why something like Final Fantasy sells so disproportionately on PlayStation… it’s because these exclusivity deals reinforce (or in some cases disrupt) audiences on a given platform, and as time goes on that becomes more difficult to undo. Sony’s had Final Fantasy in their corner for a long time now, going back to Final Fantasy 7, but the series DID eventually come to Xbox day and date beginning with Final Fantasy XIII, and was starting to cultivate an audience within that ecosystem that had a desire to play JRPGs. That Final Fantasy 7 Remake got moneyhatted (for what is still an uncertain length of time in regards to Xbox) isn’t a random coincidence. This type of moneyhat is a precisely targeted one to cause an entire genre of game not be viable on the platform.

There are some IP that within their sphere carry so much weight that they cause ripple effects across the genre. Sony’s Street Fighter V moneyhat effectively buried the entire fighter genre on Xbox, because nobody invested in that genre was going to opt for a console that lacked Street Fighter… and as a result other titles that weren’t (or at least I’m not aware of being) moneyhats would start to skip the console also, because if nobody that’s invested in that genre is opting for that console, why should the smaller, more niche IP target that console either, right?

So yes… timed exclusives very much can be used to push a competing platform out of the market, and Sony was routinely targeting games that would be the most crippling across the spectrum. Whether that be Final Fantasy (and possibly Persona?) in the JRPG space, Street Fighter in the fighting game space, the year (or two) long exclusive content deals for Destiny, and the exclusive map content for COD in the FPS space, etc… the goal was to make it so Xbox as a platform wasn’t a viable choice for the majority of the market. And quite frankly, it was working and working well… hence the situation in 2016 where MS bowing out of the market entirely was a very real possibility.

When that didn’t occur, Sony looked to land killer blows right away at the start of this generation. Hence the announcement of Final Fantasy XVI’s timed exclusivity ahead of the consoles being released, and the murmurs of a whole slew of others to be revealed in time. And the general response here was just that it was a foregone conclusion that PS5 would just continue to build on PS4’s momentum largely unimpeded. And considering the shit MS took back in 2015 when they dared to land a single comparable exclusivity deal with Rise of the Tomb Raider, that avenue of retaliation was clearly not available to them. Look how quick the clarification of the duration of exclusivity of RoTR was forced out of MS and SquareEnix, and then contrast that with Crash N’Sane Trilogy, Nier Automata, Final Fantasy 7R, KOTOR remake… or any of countless other deals where their eventual Xbox release was happily left vague as hell. That’s how we’re here today, because MS were either gonna commit fully and land some true heavy blows that made a real difference to the current landscape, or they were inevitably going to see their platform marginalised to the point where they had to drop out.

If people didn’t want to see the level of escalation we’re seeing now today… well, they shouldn’t have been so comfortable commending the ever increasing frequency and severity of deals Sony was making to cripple their primary competition. “Final Fantasy sells 80%+ on PlayStation anyways, so they may as well” and by extension “of course it makes sense for game X to skip Xbox, because the audience is all on PlayStation”. Well, congrats… now they won’t all be. The rampant desire for the glory days of PS2-era domination has led us here, and so cries about how unfair it is ring hollow.

BernardRyder wrote: ↑ Not a lot left to buy at this point!

And let's be serious, Sony reacting by wholesale buying 10-15 small studios, or one mega-studio with 15-20 smaller studios inside, could make console gaming worse. The independence of a smaller studio, or medium to large one trying to play the console manufacturers off each other, could become less likely. You're in with the big dogs or you're toast.
Thank goodness for PC, right?

inocent wrote: ↑ So true, the Sony fanboys can't see how one sided it was. I will always remember the Tomb Raider backlash which is bs since Sony was doing worse things.

jeffyjaixx wrote: ↑ Still some out there

It would because it would take away a lot of third party publishers/studios that used to be multiplatforms but if Microsoft keeps buying up 1 every year or so, not sure how Sony can really sit on their hands and wait around unless they just want to keep growing their first party studios slowly but surely instead of buying already well established studios.

The only thing that happened with this is that after the Bethesda/Activision acquisitions, Xbox can now call the new titles exclusives but even before, these titles would have been accessible to them as a multiplatform game

CFRTim wrote: ↑ @BernardRyder You're just trying to justify and rationalized everything Sony did/does while most of us are saying these (MS, Sony, etc) are just companies doing business. You want to add an "organic" touch to everything Sony, and that's fine with me.