Investing

Question about "Temptation" to ETF and e-series hoarders

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  • Jan 27th, 2018 12:37 pm
[OP]
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Nov 1, 2013
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Question about "Temptation" to ETF and e-series hoarders

Hoarders = Long term investors Smiling Face With Open Mouth
As I have mentioned earlier in my posts I lost lot of money initially day trading and buying and selling stocks very quickly. The power that came with online trading and smart phones really got the worst of me and left me deep in loss. $$$$$.
I now buy stocks in very small quantity and quickly dispose them off to the other world at the first signs of green shoots. Often I make $14, $25 or rarely $50 after accounting for the brokerage fees.
A futile, risky and tiring way of trying to make money.
I have recently started "investing" in MFs, ETFs, e series funds and Tangerine MFs. I understand the need of long term investing, have done lot of reading on MDJ, CCP and RFD but feel that I am still likely to be tempted to sell as soon I see $$ in profits.
Some of you have been investing for really long times. You must have seen your portfolios bulging with ripe juicy fruits. How do you manage to resist the temptation and not sell even when occasionally markets take a tumble?
what is the secret sauce formula I need to get a taste of?
18 replies
Sr. Member
May 5, 2016
524 posts
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Louking wrote: Hoarders = Long term investors Smiling Face With Open Mouth
As I have mentioned earlier in my posts I lost lot of money initially day trading and buying and selling stocks very quickly. The power that came with online trading and smart phones really got the worst of me and left me deep in loss. $$$$$.
I now buy stocks in very small quantity and quickly dispose them off to the other world at the first signs of green shoots. Often I make $14, $25 or rarely $50 after accounting for the brokerage fees.
A futile, risky and tiring way of trying to make money.
I have recently started "investing" in MFs, ETFs, e series funds and Tangerine MFs. I understand the need of long term investing, have done lot of reading on MDJ, CCP and RFD but feel that I am still likely to be tempted to sell as soon I see $$ in profits.
Some of you have been investing for really long times. You must have seen your portfolios bulging with ripe juicy fruits. How do you manage to resist the temptation and not sell even when occasionally markets take a tumble?
what is the secret sauce formula I need to get a taste of?
No offence but you have a bit of a gambling problem. Why don't you close your brokerage accounts and just buy Tangerine and E series funds on preauthorized purchase plans, or go to something like Wealthsimple. If you don't want to day trade but you're having trouble controlling yourself, then just get rid of your brokerage accounts.

The lower MER's on ETF's are not worth close to being worth it if you don't want follow CCP. Your case is one of the best examples of why i think people vastly underestimate how great the TD E series and the Tangerine funds are because 90% of everyday savers don't need brokerage accounts or ETF's.
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Jan 27, 2004
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azorahai wrote: No offence but you have a bit of a gambling problem. Why don't you close your brokerage accounts and just buy Tangerine and E series funds on preauthorized purchase plans, or go to something like Wealthsimple. If you don't want to day trade but you're having trouble controlling yourself, then just get rid of your brokerage accounts.

The lower MER's on ETF's are not worth close to being worth it if you don't want follow CCP. Your case is one of the best examples of why i think people vastly underestimate how great the TD E series and the Tangerine funds are because 90% of everyday savers don't need brokerage accounts or ETF's.
Are you saying that etf are only really effective for a buy and hold type strategy?

I remember when i was young i pulled out $20k to drop on the stock market...

One day gain. 3%
I was laughing with that extra $600 for doing "nothing".

Then i lost it when i placed another "bet".
I broke out even. But at a $30 loss for trading feesZ

Not worth the head ache! The rush is great... recently i joined in on the pot stock rush. It felt amazing you knwo gamblers high... lol. But i pulled them allll out since and looked at it as a temporary windfall to help pad my portfolio. I bought into hmmj pot etf and it worked out great... i sold all but $1000 worth of shares just as a curio. If hmmj tanks, thats fine. Its just $1k a small portion of my rsp. But canadians love pot. So maybe that'll explode into a $100/unit etf lol.
M
Last edited by UrbanPoet on Jan 22nd, 2018 10:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Jan 27, 2004
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esoxhntr wrote: http://www.macrotrends.net/2526/sp-500- ... al-returns

notice something?

a lot more green than red.

for long term investors, it's all about time in the market not timing the market.
I love the andex chart tool... i used to sell mutual funds in my previous job role.

It was a kick to pull out the andex chart and say
"Point to any moment in history on this chart... even the worst time like 2008 financial crisis, or the great depression. After you try to pick the worst point of history for the stock market on the chart... look at the growth 10 years later. There will always be a gain no matter what point of history you start your theoretical investment".

Point again... same result. (There is one exception... lol). If they do. I tell them thats the rare exception , and Thats when i tell the benefits of dollar cost averaging.
Sr. Member
Mar 15, 2011
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Toronto
azorahai wrote: No offence but you have a bit of a gambling problem. Why don't you close your brokerage accounts and just buy Tangerine and E series funds on preauthorized purchase plans, or go to something like Wealthsimple. If you don't want to day trade but you're having trouble controlling yourself, then just get rid of your brokerage accounts.

The lower MER's on ETF's are not worth close to being worth it if you don't want follow CCP. Your case is one of the best examples of why i think people vastly underestimate how great the TD E series and the Tangerine funds are because 90% of everyday savers don't need brokerage accounts or ETF's.
I agree with this advice. When l started investing, l made a rule to hold my portfolio for a year before selling. I also was so busy with work and life, that l only checked in my account monthly.
I'd also suggest to set some alerts on your account to stop loss, and then leave it be for month.
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May 11, 2014
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Part of investing for the long term is also saving for my future retirement and longer term savings. It isn't about making a big gain here or there etc. There is a specific need that I am filling and therefore buying investments for that purpose.

My trading portion is based on research of the company's financials, future business trends, and my fair value estimate. This is strictly money I can afford to lose. If you start investing/speculating money on stocks that you really can't afford, then you are going to be have to check early and sell with any gain you see. This keeps you sensitive to any market movement.

One thing I will note, be careful making such frequent trades on your account. Quick short-term trade income may be considered a trading income and the CRA will tax your gains as income rather than Capital Gains.While this might not occur, what you have to report in capital gains is also going to be challenging making and tracking each of your transactions you do.

As others have brought up, perhaps it is not a good idea for you to use a brokerage account. @Azorahai has brought up some great alternatives. I woudl also suggest you use Saskatchewan Pension Plan which is a locked in RRSP. It is very conservative, in fact, probably too conservative for my needs, but my $2500 contribution per year is toward securing my retirement should I really mess up my own self-directed RRSP. For somoene like you, this might work a bit better in having something you can't see everyday. You get a statement twice a year which will prevent you from seeing your dollar amount.
Member
Apr 29, 2017
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It sounds like you have a bit of a gambling problem. For someone like myself who used to have a major gambling problem ($30k on a hand of blackjack or $25k on a MLB game when it was my entire net worth) who is also about to start long term investing, I would probably have to go with someone where I can't just pick and sell stocks at will. Take the advice you see here, sounds like the TD e series might work?
[OP]
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Nov 1, 2013
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Thanks esoxhntr, azorahai, UrbanPoet, kab.work, xgbsSS, Mitts87 for your replies. Much, much appreciated.
esoxhntr - yes you are right about the charts and the long term investing. I think I have finally come to my senses.
azorahai, Mitts87 - You are both right in that it seems to be gambling rather than investing.
But it is not.
Well, you see I lost lot of money. In order to recover the lost money I have a bit desperate to bag whatever money I see on the table. I also am the burnt child that dreads the fire and hence keeps 90% of cash on the side. as a result I take very small positions and hit and run at first opportunity.
xgbsSS - I agree that one way to minimize damage to my portfolio would be to reduce smartphone addiction. It is for this reason alone that I have chosen to keep mutual funds in one of my retirement portfolio even though i had a free hand to a great extent.
And i know it is one of the main reason why often Women make better investors than men.
My problem is the hurt, financial loss and kick to ego in the past. I did lose a lot. I am sort of desperate to bring losses back to zero. It is for the first time in years that I have decided to pull triggers on all green shoots but I am afraid that is precisely what would happen when I hear the first news about volatility.
I don't know how you guys manage to play cool and watch the evaporation of profits in times of volatility.
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Sep 30, 2001
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Louking wrote: I don't know how you guys manage to play cool and watch the evaporation of profits in times of volatility.
the average investor isn't in it to gamble. Follow a CCP model with core ETFs (and maybe augmented with solid companies and decent dividends) and hold. check and re-balance twice a year at most and don't check the stock charts obsessively.
Be kind and civil with one another
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Jul 27, 2017
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Louking wrote: Hoarders = Long term investors

Some of you have been investing for really long times. You must have seen your portfolios bulging with ripe juicy fruits. How do you manage to resist the temptation and not sell even when occasionally markets take a tumble?

what is the secret sauce formula I need to get a taste of?
self discipline/self control, learn from past mistakes, go with what works [proven], don't try to reinvent the wheel, dont be anxious, never chase a stock/investment, have a series of exit strategies, set a stop loss, 'know your limit, play within it' .... just a few to mention.
Louking wrote:
I have recently started "investing" in MFs, ETFs, e series funds and Tangerine MFs. I understand the need of long term investing, have done lot of reading on MDJ, CCP and RFD but feel that I am still likely to be tempted to sell as soon I see $$ in profits.
well, 'different strokes for different folks', time, age, personal financial situation, short/long term game plan

you can always take profit, maybe sell a portion of what has gained & let the rest ride. Use the profits to invest in something else

At some point (based on what your exit strategy is) there will come a time when you need the money, maybe the dividends or gains. Only you the individual can know that.

Some investors will buy & sell on a say a minimum 10%/year & be totally happy, while others want that double or triple.

Its personal individual by individual.

OP, I'm curious - at this stage of your life based on your past investing [lessons learned] what yield/percentage year over year return for you would you consider 'satisfactory' or minimum?

Then based on that, are you doing this type of investment or still go for the possible (cross your fingers) ' fly me to the moon' investing?

I take this approach...

it's my money to lose, not yours, so don't give me any tips on this, that & the other stock/ETF, don't believe what the analysts/media spout as 'the next fad/hot stock or the doom & gloom' market crash.

No one knows where the markets are headed, they do only after the fact, then everyone & his brother/sister jumps on the bandwagon.

I know an HISA is paying approx 2.3%

That any money that I borrow to invest must return back to me at least double the cost of borrowing.

That there is no such thing as a 'for certain' a single publicly listed stock/ETF that will guarantee me a 'satisfactory return' year over year. Some will argue day trading, shorting, options, pick of the day/week like weed stocks or the more volatile crypto investing. Any of that is 'casino money'

That is why from the several threads/discussion on RFD the long haul investing such as the CCP or quality dividend stocks has given investors a relatively consistent decent (yet low) return
Last edited by Guest37273939 on Jan 23rd, 2018 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Newbie
Sep 16, 2017
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Louking wrote: I don't know how you guys manage to play cool and watch the evaporation of profits in times of volatility.
How did you pick your stock and decide entry point?

I study the fundamental of the company and buy it when I feel it is fair or under valued. So if the price dropped(but fundamental didn't change), sometimes I will be happy since I can add more positions if I get some cash around.

Reading some books about how market prices a stock may also help to change your mindset.
Deal Addict
Jul 23, 2007
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In the last few years, I can remember selling for only three reasons.

1. When I re-balance the assets in the indexed ETF, TD e-Series portfolios.

2. When any of my individual Canadian dividend growth stocks cut their dividends. (Out of nearly thirty stocks in the portfolio, I've had only one dividend cut in the last two years).

3. When I've bought what turns out to be a multi-bagger whose allocation gets totally out of hand compared to the rest of the portfolio. (I've only had one in the last fifteen years, so not a big problem there.)

Give me another big financial storm like we had in 2008 to early 2009, and I might find some other leaks in the portfolio that may require some selling, but I'm not counting on it. More than likely just buy and hold, as usual.
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Feb 4, 2017
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Hey OP, I think you need to buy something where you don't see the price fluctuate every second or that's not as easy to sell, like a mutual fund(ie. Tangerine). I am kind of the same way, I know we shouldn't watch the prices every day but I still do. If I parked it in a mutual fund, I definitely won't even care about the price at all since it's not as easily traded. Try a low cost mutual fund and it might just stop you from constantly buying/selling.
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Oct 17, 2004
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Buy indexed funds then don't regularly look at your gains/losses. I've seen references to studies that found that the people who aren't constantly checking generally do better than those who check regularly.
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Oct 17, 2015
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porticoman wrote: self discipline/self control, learn from past mistakes, go with what works [proven], don't try to reinvent the wheel, dont be anxious, never chase a stock/investment, have a series of exit strategies, set a stop loss, 'know your limit, play within it' .... just a few to mention.
you can always take profit, maybe sell a portion of what has gained & let the rest ride. Use the profits to invest in something else

OP, I'm curious - at this stage of your life based on your past investing [lessons learned] what yield/percentage year over year return for you would you consider 'satisfactory' or minimum?
Then based on that, are you doing this type of investment or still go for the possible (cross your fingers) ' fly me to the moon' investing?
porticoman - This is more than a handful, thanks a lot for the concentrated wisdom- self discipline/self control, learn from past mistakes, go with what works [proven], don't try to reinvent the wheel, dont be anxious, never chase a stock/investment, have a series of exit strategies, set a stop loss, 'know your limit, play within it
[OP]
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Nov 1, 2013
304 posts
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I simply can't thank enough to all the posters here.
Porticoman I truly am thankful to you for listing the main points one must always remember. Smartphones and online trading has placed lot of power in our hands but making wrong decisions has become extremely easy as well.
"OP, I'm curious - at this stage of your life based on your past investing [lessons learned] what yield/percentage year over year return for you would you consider 'satisfactory' or minimum?
Then based on that, are you doing this type of investment or still go for the possible (cross your fingers) ' fly me to the moon' investing?"
Well, I am not looking for a yield. I have been licking my wounds for past few years and simply trying to snatch whatever $10, $20, $100 bucks I can. Obviously brokerages have made lot more money from my trades then I have myself. The strategy was to keep most money in cash and pounce when markets crash but that went dramatically wrong last year.
Going forward from here onward I do want to focus on gettng about 7% return and not focus too much on ups and downs. Snatching back the losses is not going to happen in a month or year, I better calm down.
cheapmang - This is the main reason I have, finally, started investing in tangerine and e series funds. I am slowly picking up some index funds, mutual funds and etfs. But very slowly.
"How did you pick your stock and decide entry point?" I just followed technical data and kept an eagle eye on it. used to pounce on when I think stock got oversold. I did recover some money in past few years but not a whole lot. Unfortunately one bad bet would often end up wiping out dozens of gains. A never ending game of snakes and ladders.

Thanks everyone for the fantastic and very inspiring suggestions. You guys are phenomenal. I have learnt so much in this thread.
Sr. Member
Jun 10, 2013
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Hahah I'm an ex gambler and I still have those gambling tendencies myself. I think you really just have to discipline yourself. I think I came to terms that I just completely sucked at trading and should never do it again...But now I find life a bit more purposeless without the gambling so I just binge on gaming =/. Gotta get your dopamine kick somehow eh?

My motivation : retirement within this decade if I just stick to a long-term buy and hold plan - I think because of my regret over past gambling losses via the brokerage I feel like I destroyed retirement at 30. I definitely won't want to work past 40 if I could help it. That overarching goal basically puts that angel on my shoulder telling me no. There was bitcoin, there is weed, there is AI, there is exponential tech...

If I MUST gamble (never have since I made decision to alter asset setup) then I can do so with a 5% NW allocation and that's it...But I still don't trust myself with that...I had a job I disliked over the past year (I resigned thanks to my portfolio) and that taught me that money is really really tough to make and should be valued. You won't always have the opportunity, so don't squander money.
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Oct 17, 2015
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Hobotrader wrote: My motivation : retirement within this decade if I just stick to a long-term buy and hold plan - I think because of my regret over past gambling losses via the brokerage I feel like I destroyed retirement at 30. I definitely won't want to work past 40 if I could help it. That overarching goal basically puts that angel on my shoulder telling me no. There was bitcoin, there is weed, there is AI, there is exponential tech...
If I MUST gamble (never have since I made decision to alter asset setup) then I can do so with a 5% NW allocation and that's it...But I still don't trust myself with that...I had a job I disliked over the past year (I resigned thanks to my portfolio) and that taught me that money is really really tough to make and should be valued. You won't always have the opportunity, so don't squander money.
Very good points indeed. It is easy to lose money at spur of the moment decisions especially when markets are crashing or rising like a rocket. sometimes it is better to turn off the screen and watch a move or do something rigorous to get the mind off the storm.

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