Real Estate

Redfin Launches in Canada

  • Last Updated:
  • Feb 18th, 2019 12:33 pm
Sr. Member
Jul 10, 2018
513 posts
483 upvotes
A real estate agent friend of mine said that the way Zillow operates is that it creates partnerships with brokerages (e.g. ReMax) and then requires some type of fee (e.g. $5000/year per agent) for agent listings appear prominently. This is a fee paid by the agents, not the brokerage. The more you pay, the better exposure your listings get. So the agents that are currently successful and doing lots of deals and can afford to pay higher fees, will continue to get more business.

I've not looked into any of this but with so many American companies coming into the market and RE start-ups popping up in the city, non-traditional ways of transacting real estate are the future.
Deal Guru
Feb 29, 2008
13425 posts
9368 upvotes
I mean, this is no surprise. And again it happened because agents got greedy. Prices doubled, tripled, quadrupuled and agents were making money hand over fist...many not doing a damn thing. When you have a top property that you know can be sold on its own, why would you want to cut into your profit by 10,20K for someone who you feel didn't add much value.

This is more about the influx of useless agents doing nothing adn collecting 10s of thousands of dollars only because values went up. That to me is ridiculous if the service rendered is subpar.

If the average Joe was allowed to sell on MLS and get the same exposure, about 70% of agents would be gone. Times are changing. Look how long it took us to get sold numbers. TREB knew their strength was the fact that the public could not see sold numbers. Things are changing and modernizing. Either evolve or get left behind.
Sr. Member
Mar 13, 2017
984 posts
1155 upvotes
joepipe wrote: translation, realtors are pooping their pants because the market is shifting to lower commissions and better technology / services than your typical realtor will offer for 5% commissions...

and lets not forget of the 50k or so realtors in the GTA, about 90% have the education and IQ to maybe be working the Timmys drive thru.....

the Purge is happening.... this is AirBnB vs the Taxi companies 2.0.....
I think you mean Uber vs Taxi, but I get your point.

There may be no market that needs to be totally disrupted more in North America than the GTA residential real estate market. TREB & OREA have successfully been fending off disruption for decades. They are strong, influential bodies - I'll give them that. However when they lost the privacy argument towards past-sales data I was more impressed that they lost than I was sales data would now flow. That was a tide turning moment.

For 20 years I've felt the same:
- when choosing an agent to list your home, the best that you can hope for is an agent that won't derail the best sale the market would have delivered you

Let that sink in ..
Sr. Member
Jul 10, 2018
513 posts
483 upvotes
It's an interesting discussion to have. Most agents don't make much money; in fact over 17k of agents in the GTA don't make any money at all since they don't do any transactions. These may be part-timers or people that are not very good at being agents. Over half of the 50k+ agents in the GTA (I believe this is more than all agents combined in the rest of Canada) do one or fewer transactions per year.

This interest blog post by a real estate agent breaks down some of the numbers and looks at what typical agents might make:
https://torontorealtyblog.com/blog/real ... ents-2017/
Deal Addict
Dec 18, 2006
1947 posts
353 upvotes
Markham
JayLove06 wrote: I mean, this is no surprise. And again it happened because agents got greedy. Prices doubled, tripled, quadrupuled and agents were making money hand over fist...many not doing a damn thing. When you have a top property that you know can be sold on its own, why would you want to cut into your profit by 10,20K for someone who you feel didn't add much value.

This is more about the influx of useless agents doing nothing adn collecting 10s of thousands of dollars only because values went up. That to me is ridiculous if the service rendered is subpar.

If the average Joe was allowed to sell on MLS and get the same exposure, about 70% of agents would be gone. Times are changing. Look how long it took us to get sold numbers. TREB knew their strength was the fact that the public could not see sold numbers. Things are changing and modernizing. Either evolve or get left behind.
The average Joe *CAN* sell on MLS and get the same exposure for low flat-fees like $175 for a 6 month listing (on the TREB) - many agents offer this type of FSBO service. I've worked with several RFD'ers who've done this successfully since 2010.
Jay Rana, Sales Representative
YOUR HOME SOLD GUARANTEED, OR I'LL BUY IT!*
CENTURY 21 Titans Realty Inc. Brokerage
@RE4L.ca
*conditions apply
Deal Guru
Feb 29, 2008
13425 posts
9368 upvotes
y2jversion1 wrote: The average Joe *CAN* sell on MLS and get the same exposure for low flat-fees like $175 for a 6 month listing (on the TREB) - many agents offer this type of FSBO service. I've worked with several RFD'ers who've done this successfully since 2010.
Yea but how many agents would be willing to deal with Joe?
Sr. Member
Jul 10, 2018
513 posts
483 upvotes
JayLove06 wrote: Yea but how many agents would be willing to deal with Joe?
Joe can do it at any time 24/7 using sites like ListedBySeller.ca to lease or sell property.

I listed a rental unit once using this. Got it posted on Realtor.ca. You decide what commission is paid to agents that have renters. You just register and go thru the online process filling in all the MLS forms, upload photos, pay the fee and it's up.
Ultimately, I got more hits on kijiji and got the unit rented.
Deal Addict
Dec 18, 2006
1947 posts
353 upvotes
Markham
JayLove06 wrote: Yea but how many agents would be willing to deal with Joe?
If there is a cooperating commission being offered, then I haven't had a single instance where a "Joe" has complained to me that they were 'boycotted' by agents. In fact, I've ended up advising agents regarding what forms to use and how to work directly with a "Joe" for a property that I've listed on behalf of a "Joe".
Jay Rana, Sales Representative
YOUR HOME SOLD GUARANTEED, OR I'LL BUY IT!*
CENTURY 21 Titans Realty Inc. Brokerage
@RE4L.ca
*conditions apply
Deal Addict
Mar 27, 2004
4909 posts
2867 upvotes
Toronto
JayLove06 wrote: I mean, this is no surprise. And again it happened because agents got greedy. Prices doubled, tripled, quadrupuled and agents were making money hand over fist...many not doing a damn thing. When you have a top property that you know can be sold on its own, why would you want to cut into your profit by 10,20K for someone who you feel didn't add much value.

This is more about the influx of useless agents doing nothing adn collecting 10s of thousands of dollars only because values went up. That to me is ridiculous if the service rendered is subpar.

If the average Joe was allowed to sell on MLS and get the same exposure, about 70% of agents would be gone. Times are changing. Look how long it took us to get sold numbers. TREB knew their strength was the fact that the public could not see sold numbers. Things are changing and modernizing. Either evolve or get left behind.
Just curious, why would 30% of agents still be around? TREB has over 53000 members. You can find numbers on this on google, like half of the members complete 1 or fewer transactions.
Full-time Realtor
Deal Addict
Jul 3, 2007
2912 posts
3110 upvotes
Toronto
I find it amazing how many home buyers / sellers nickle and dime a mortgage broker or bank for 5 or 10 basis points on the rate, which equates to maybe $1000 interest savings
over the course of a 5 year term for the average mortgage. But they spend $25k - 50k in commissions on selling their house in the GTA. Face With Stuck-out Tongue And Tightly-closed Eyes

Ive even heard them try to haggle with lawyers on closing costs for a $100 discount etc...its really pathetic....

Maybe try haggling the realtors instead?? And especially the buying agent that always wants 2.5% ?? Why not offer 2% or 1.5% ??
Deal Guru
Feb 29, 2008
13425 posts
9368 upvotes
oasis100 wrote: Just curious, why would 30% of agents still be around? TREB has over 53000 members. You can find numbers on this on google, like half of the members complete 1 or fewer transactions.
I’m spitballing.
Deal Guru
Feb 29, 2008
13425 posts
9368 upvotes
joepipe wrote: I find it amazing how many home buyers / sellers nickle and dime a mortgage broker or bank for 5 or 10 basis points on the rate, which equates to maybe $1000 interest savings
over the course of a 5 year term for the average mortgage. But they spend $25k - 50k in commissions on selling their house in the GTA. Face With Stuck-out Tongue And Tightly-closed Eyes

Ive even heard them try to haggle with lawyers on closing costs for a $100 discount etc...its really pathetic....

Maybe try haggling the realtors instead?? And especially the buying agent that always wants 2.5% ?? Why not offer 2% or 1.5% ??
This is true. I know many brokers and the stories I hear make me laugh. Buyers ending relationships with their lender to switch to an inferior lender because they’re saving a couple dollars.
Deal Addict
Mar 27, 2004
4909 posts
2867 upvotes
Toronto
If the coop didn't exist, and a buyer came and bought the property themselves, they would be looking for a 2.5% discount regardless.
I think it is beneficial for all parties, not everyone wants to negotiate and deal with the sale, that is why the system exist as it does.
Full-time Realtor
Deal Fanatic
Jul 3, 2011
5768 posts
2932 upvotes
Thornhill
Zillow's model isn't new to Canada much less Ontario.

Realtysellers started it almost 2 decades ago - and failed
Zoocasa, backed by deep pockets tried it - and failed
The Redpin, which was pegged as an amazing new type of brokerage that would so disrupt the industry things would never be the same tried it - and failed

As have many others.

What people don't understand is that the U.S Mls system is not like Canada's it is fractured into dozens and realtor.com isn't even industry owned so Zillow's will have to be able to compete with a national realtor.ca to survive here and it won't. Plus, Zillow's market share in the U.S is dependent on Realtors posting their listings and paying for Zillow to actually sell it back to them, yes that's correct, despite what Zillow claim,s this is laid bare on Realtor groups of thousands I follow where the running jokes are the way out of whack zestimates and how Zillow advertises properties for sale that aren't for sale. But as with Zoocasa, there will always be Realtors who think that unless they pay a service to promote the very listings they give them for free, they won't get anywhere.

The industry has supposedly been undergoing industry altering disruptions for decades, starting with the offering of co-operating commissions, then the creation of buyer agency by the courts, The nail in the coffin was supposedly when the MLS system went live on the internet, then the nail became the for sale by owner entry, then for sure the death of Realtors was when fsbo were allowed on the MLS and,yet, here we are and none of the disrupters have prevailed.

I recognize that Real estate industry bashing is allowed to be major sport here on RFD but it's interesting to note that there were many RFDers who also bashed the industry apparently decided to get into the business under the supposed pretext of doing for themselves or friends and family yet none that I've seen have opted to make posts as a Realtor under their previously known ID. They have caused the numbers to swell to that 50 thousand plus and they too now become the target of bashing that paints everyone as the same.

So, I'd like to hear what a few of those RFDers cum registrants have to say as to whether or not they think they helped to clean up the industry, what they have done to clean it up and how it feels to be lumped into one by those in here still criticizing the industry especially by those who bash it but clearly do not understand how it works.

Any such person care to speak up?
Sr. Member
Jul 10, 2018
513 posts
483 upvotes
^^^
So that the key distinguishing factor in Canada is the monopoly that MLS/organized real estate has on the market. Agents and brokers are beholden to brokerages, and agents/brokers/brokerages are beholden to Organized Real Estate. One giant chain of fees, nearly 100% market share, and enormous amounts of proprietary data.

By the way, I'm currently studying to get a realtor license.
Sr. Member
Mar 13, 2017
984 posts
1155 upvotes
licenced wrote: Zillow's model isn't new to Canada much less Ontario.

Realtysellers started it almost 2 decades ago - and failed
Zoocasa, backed by deep pockets tried it - and failed
The Redpin, which was pegged as an amazing new type of brokerage that would so disrupt the industry things would never be the same tried it - and failed

As have many others.

What people don't understand is that the U.S Mls system is not like Canada's it is fractured into dozens and realtor.com isn't even industry owned so Zillow's will have to be able to compete with a national realtor.ca to survive here and it won't. Plus, Zillow's market share in the U.S is dependent on Realtors posting their listings and paying for Zillow to actually sell it back to them, yes that's correct, despite what Zillow claim,s this is laid bare on Realtor groups of thousands I follow where the running jokes are the way out of whack zestimates and how Zillow advertises properties for sale that aren't for sale. But as with Zoocasa, there will always be Realtors who think that unless they pay a service to promote the very listings they give them for free, they won't get anywhere.

The industry has supposedly been undergoing industry altering disruptions for decades, starting with the offering of co-operating commissions, then the creation of buyer agency by the courts, The nail in the coffin was supposedly when the MLS system went live on the internet, then the nail became the for sale by owner entry, then for sure the death of Realtors was when fsbo were allowed on the MLS and,yet, here we are and none of the disrupters have prevailed.

I recognize that Real estate industry bashing is allowed to be major sport here on RFD but it's interesting to note that there were many RFDers who also bashed the industry apparently decided to get into the business under the supposed pretext of doing for themselves or friends and family yet none that I've seen have opted to make posts as a Realtor under their previously known ID. They have caused the numbers to swell to that 50 thousand plus and they too now become the target of bashing that paints everyone as the same.

So, I'd like to hear what a few of those RFDers cum registrants have to say as to whether or not they think they helped to clean up the industry, what they have done to clean it up and how it feels to be lumped into one by those in here still criticizing the industry especially by those who bash it but clearly do not understand how it works.

Any such person care to speak up?
I don't think it's common for people to have a bad experience with a mechanic, lawyer, veterinarian, banker etc and conjure up feelings that they should figure out how to DIY it. They simply move on and find another service provider to assist them. The fact that IT IS common for people in the GTA to feel they *should* DIY it is the bull horn screaming the industry desperately needs a disruptive overhaul. And to suggest that others have tried to disrupt and failed, so there must be something right about the space - LOL !!!!

TREB & OREA have done a wonderful job in protecting their members. Much better obviously than the taxi industry did for their own. I would even argue that up until the recent loss of the sales data appeal, the archaic structure supporting GTA realtors was more solid than what Doctors & Lawyers had protecting their industry interests.

You can look back at all the industry markets that have been disrupted and pinpoint the what-went-wrongs. For GTA real estate, it is / will be:
- barriers to entry almost non existent (TREB & OREA greed; 50,000 agents - LOL!!!)
- resistance to tech (did anyone buy the privacy argument re sales data?)

The industry is cannibalizing itself, but it's early. The left arm was just gnawed off (sale data), be patient more to come.

And just like taxi drivers who saw the writing on the wall and crossed over to uber early, I see some brokerages and agents doing the same.

What's of the taxi industry today? Social media of cab drivers refusing to take fares to a hospital b/c the route is too short, driver pissing in a bottle so not to lose line position, dirty-stench interiors being called out .. basically all the stuff that drove people crazy before the disruption. And you don't think a version of this is coming for oldschool realtors?
Last edited by 1cat2dogs on Feb 17th, 2019 11:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Deal Addict
Jul 3, 2007
2912 posts
3110 upvotes
Toronto
1cat2dogs wrote: I don't think it's common for people to have a bad experience with a mechanic, lawyer, veterinarian, banker etc and conjure up feelings that that they should simply figure out how to DIY it. They simply move on and find another service provider to assist them. The fact that IT IS common for people in the GTA to feel they *should* DIY it is the bull horn screaming the industry desperately needs a disruptive overhaul. And to suggest that others have tried to disrupt and failed, so there must be something right about the space - LOL !!!!

TREB & OREA have done a wonderful job in protecting their members. Much better obviously than the taxi industry did for their own. I would even argue that up until the recent loss of the sales data appeal, the archaic structure supporting GTA realtors was more solid than what Doctors & Lawyers had protecting their industry interests.

You can look back at all the industry markets that have been disrupted and pinpoint the what-went-wrongs. For GTA real estate, it is / will be:
- barriers to entry almost non existent (TREB & OREA greed; 50,000 agents - LOL!!!)
- resistance to tech (did anyone buy the privacy argument re sales data?)

The industry is cannibalizing itself, but it's early. The left arm was just gnawed off (sale data), be patient more to come.

And just like taxi drivers who saw the writing on the wall and crossed over to uber early, I see some brokerages and agents doing the same.

What's of the taxi industry today? Social media of cab drivers refusing to take fares to a hospital b/c the route is too short, driver pissing in a bottle so not to lose line position, dirty-stench interiors being called out .. basically all the stuff that drove people crazy before the disruption. And you don't think a version of this is coming for oldschool realtors?
well said, I agree 100% ..... the industry had its doors blown off when the courts finally ruled against TREB....I was saying it for years that the data TREB and CREA
put out to the media was FRAUD.... complete lies and twisted numbers to always make the market look better than it did...keep the FOMO going

realtors like Brad Lamb, etc putting out ads saying condo projects are gonna make you 30% returns annually.... FRAUD

imagine a stock broker or financial planner being allowed to tell you how a portfolio or stock is gonna make you 30% annually....

they cant, its illegal ......just like it should have been for realtors

now the floodgates are open for the public to see the true data of the market, new technology, new companies and agents charging less commissions....

read a good article by every bulls favorite enemy on RFD garth turner, but it really talks about how ross kay proved how the data is pure fraud in Canadian RE for years..

https://www.greaterfool.ca/2019/02/15/the-fraud/

“This means every housing chart in Canada posted by a bank, a ratings agency, an economist, a government or a realtor-blogger looking for attention was a lie. The sales volumes governments relied upon to calculate their budgets were wrong. The LTVs produced in bank quarterly reports were false. The false narrative of the impact of B20 (stress test) is now debunked in that the national market turned in 2015 not 2018.”
Last edited by joepipe on Feb 17th, 2019 10:59 am, edited 2 times in total.
Sr. Member
Mar 13, 2017
984 posts
1155 upvotes
joepipe wrote: well said, I agree 100% ..... the industry had its doors blown off when the courts finally ruled against TREB....I was saying it for years that the data TREB and CREA
put out to the media was FRAUD.... complete lies and twisted numbers to always make the market look better than it did...

now the floodgates are open for the public to see the true data of the market, new technology, new companies and agents charging less commissions....

read a good article by every bulls favorite enemy on RFD garth turner, but it really talks about how ross kay has been saying for years how the data is pure fraud in RE for years..

https://www.greaterfool.ca/2019/02/15/the-fraud/

“This means every housing chart in Canada posted by a bank, a ratings agency, an economist, a government or a realtor-blogger looking for attention was a lie. The sales volumes governments relied upon to calculate their budgets were wrong. The LTVs produced in bank quarterly reports were false. The false narrative of the impact of B20 (stress test) is now debunked in that the national market turned in 2015 not 2018.”
Me Bull, You Bear.

Interesting how our common ground is industry practice reform.
Deal Addict
Jul 3, 2007
2912 posts
3110 upvotes
Toronto
1cat2dogs wrote: Me Bull, You Bear.

Interesting how our common ground is industry practice reform.
I am actually neither, Im just not a raving permabull like some people on RFD who get psychotically mad if anyone debates that RE prices will go down temporarily....

I have bought and sold RE , and I sold in spring 2017 when the peak was obvious ....

but yes this market should be 100% TRANSPARENT and about fairness and true data ...

not the lies TREB was putting out to the MSM every month , for years.....
Sr. Member
Mar 13, 2017
984 posts
1155 upvotes
joepipe wrote: I am actually neither, Im just not a raving permabull like some people on RFD who get psychotically mad if anyone debates that RE prices will go down temporarily....

I have bought and sold RE , and I sold in spring 2017 when the peak was obvious ....

but yes this market should be 100% TRANSPARENT and about fairness and true data ...

not the lies TREB was putting out to the MSM every month , for years.....
My point is, between the two of us we represent the spectrum majority of buyers & sellers.

So who's left? Agents themselves? People who have agents in their family?

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