Salesforce declares the 9-to-5 workday dead, will let some employees work remotely from now on

This should have happened years ago. What point is there for an employee to get up, shower, get dressed, sit in traffic etc, just to sit at a computer and do the same thing they could have done from home. I'll go further and say the 8 hour workday is also dead - the computer age nullified that. In the 50's it may have taken 8 hours, but not in 2021.

Declaring "9-5 dead" isn't a very good connotation, IMO. The first thing I thought of was, now you are expected to work more than 8 hours a day.

If this was not their intention, there are much better ways to say they are now "remote-first".

Jon Lai wrote: ↑ Declaring "9-5 dead" isn't a very good connotation, IMO. The first thing I thought of was, now you are expected to work more than 8 hours a day.

If this was not their intention, there are much better ways to say they are now "remote-first".

That is exactly what they mean. Naive people will honestly think that this is a good thing. Be careful what you wish for.

The cons far outweigh the pros in my opinion.

1. Potential outsourcing
2. Lower salaries to adjust for you living in a cheaper city/town (like what Facebook and some tech companies are already doing)
3. Out of sight, out of mind for those who don't go into the office
4. You're implicitly expected to be available around the clock. Even if that isn't the expectation, there will inevitably be people who will be since it's so convenient given that your workstation is always set up, and you will find yourself competing with those people

And the list goes on. Honestly, be careful what you wish for.

moofur wrote: ↑ That is exactly what they mean. Naive people will honestly think that this is a good thing. Be careful what you wish for.

The cons far outweigh the pros in my opinion.

1. Potential outsourcing
2. Lower salaries to adjust for you living in a cheaper city/town (like what Facebook and some tech companies are already doing)
3. Out of sight, out of mind for those who don't go into the office
4. You're implicitly expected to be available around the clock. Even if that isn't the expectation, there will inevitably be people who will be since it's so convenient given that your workstation is always set up, and you will find yourself competing with those people

And the list goes on. Honestly, be careful what you wish for.

Of course, but it's not the way I would word an obviously PR opportunity here.

banks need to operate on a 24/7 basis, after that everything else will fall into place

If you can track performance of your employees then by all means, it's dead. If you can't then it's far easier to monitor progress and performance across the board when everyone is doing the same job and works the same hours. Maybe different with salaries employees and especially those who don't receive overtime. Tech Supports call center employees can't even go pee or go grab water, without letting their managers know who are on their asses at all times.

I have a friend who works for Salesforce, she has been working from home since March. She is immuno-compromised and is at high risk of developing complications if she gets infected, so has hardly left the house since March. She's been happily working away, raking in the cash.

moofur wrote: ↑ That is exactly what they mean. Naive people will honestly think that this is a good thing. Be careful what you wish for.

The cons far outweigh the pros in my opinion.

1. Potential outsourcing
2. Lower salaries to adjust for you living in a cheaper city/town (like what Facebook and some tech companies are already doing)
3. Out of sight, out of mind for those who don't go into the office
4. You're implicitly expected to be available around the clock. Even if that isn't the expectation, there will inevitably be people who will be since it's so convenient given that your workstation is always set up, and you will find yourself competing with those people

And the list goes on. Honestly, be careful what you wish for.

I saw it start happening once Blackberries started to be given out to people that aren't at the C-suite level - the expectation that you answer your e-mail when your boss sends you a question regardless if you are in the office or at home getting ready for bed.

This latest move just reinforces the idea. After all, studies have shown a large portion of employees actually work longer as they lose track of time working outside of the office environment - ie no co-workers reminding them it's time for lunch or coffee or go home. What sometimes these companies don't see is how some of these employees end up spending more time but be less productive as they 'forget to punch out' when they pick up the kids from school or take a personal call... or some just plain take advantage of the situation to watch their favourite show on company time now that they are at home and no-one is watching them. After all, with the 9-5 workday a thing of the past, who is the say that the employee isn't thinking about work when they are out shopping?

It's hunky Dory until there's recession. Then groups and people will be knit picked at.

But recessions are a relic of the past since we can just print money away and restructure debt so there is never any defaul... so let it rain!

It's actually a good thing. Housing is up all over Ontario. That means more economic growth spread out. All the out of GTAers should be thanking the gods for Covid bringing rich Torontonians to your town own creating more wealth and prosperity all throughout this great province.

New tourist areas will develop so we're not just stuck with Niagara, PEC and Blue Mountain.

craftsman wrote: ↑ I saw it start happening once Blackberries started to be given out to people that aren't at the C-suite level - the expectation that you answer your e-mail when your boss sends you a question regardless if you are in the office or at home getting ready for bed.

This latest move just reinforces the idea.

This is the trade off. The company phone or laptop has expectations. I worked for a company where there GM was very careful about sending emails out after normal hours or over weekends. She didn't want to establish that as the norm and would only do so if something needed to be looked into right away. She was an exec at one of the banks before heading up our firm and saw the impact of not having that separation from the office. Sadly, most people don't care,

I work from home since March as well, you have to be very discipline when working at home. Some people think you are a free man when able to work at home, you can go to Gym, Go coffee or lunch whenever you want, etc.
It is completely different, a lot of stats shows that the productivity is higher for those working from home. Without having to stress with commute to catch your bus or Go Train, people tend to stay over and finish their work beyond their shift,

Yes, work remote mean you can work anywhere and also means that you CAN work anytime anywhere. I always work over hours on evening and week-end.

At a certain point of career, you no longer a 9-5 man/woman, unless you are working at assembly line or jobs that are strictly hours rate. A lot of jobs, if you need to get things done, you have to get it done, we don't look at the clock.

MP3_SKY wrote: ↑ I work from home since March as well, you have to be very discipline when working at home. Some people think you are a free man when able to work at home, you can go to Gym, Go coffee or lunch whenever you want, etc.
It is completely different, a lot of stats shows that the productivity is higher for those working from home. Without having to stress with communicate to catch your bus or Go Train, people tend to stay over and finish their work beyond their shift,

Those stats are based on a Chinese company - Ctrip.com - which did a big experiment a few years ago where they literally took half the company and had them work for home regardless of the position/title while the other half worked in the office. The half that worked from home was found to be 20% more productive than the half that worked in the office. All of this sounds great unless you ask the workers. Most of those who worked from home wanted to return to the office after 6 months as they believed that they were not as happy at home as they were in the office. It's possible that those who worked from home got the 20% productivity increase because they ended up working longer hours and couldn't separate themselves from work as easily as when they were in the office.

Now, if you follow that up with more current studies which now show that productivity actually dropped by approx 20% in those who work from home versus those who are in the office. This probably has something to do with the position sampled as well as employees are starting to take advantage of the lack of oversight by management.

So, if you combine the two points above, companies are trading off short-term gains in productivity with increased general employee dissatisfaction and dropping productivity levels as time goes on....

craftsman wrote: ↑ I saw it start happening once Blackberries started to be given out to people that aren't at the C-suite level - the expectation that you answer your e-mail when your boss sends you a question regardless if you are in the office or at home getting ready for bed.

This latest move just reinforces the idea. After all, studies have shown a large portion of employees actually work longer as they lose track of time working outside of the office environment - ie no co-workers reminding them it's time for lunch or coffee or go home. What sometimes these companies don't see is how some of these employees end up spending more time but be less productive as they 'forget to punch out' when they pick up the kids from school or take a personal call... or some just plain take advantage of the situation to watch their favourite show on company time now that they are at home and no-one is watching them. After all, with the 9-5 workday a thing of the past, who is the say that the employee isn't thinking about work when they are out shopping?

You’re on that old school mentality. If you’re a boss you should expect that parents are going to pick up their kids and that is OK. Just make sure the work gets done. Most people will adapt to flex. For decades we’ve bitched and moaned about flexible work life balance and remote workings. Let’s embrace it rather than being pessimistic. Those who can manage their desk and at highly organized will continue to be so. And if someone goes to the gym, so what? Change of scene boosts creativity. I would never expect anyone wfh to sit in front of their desk all day. That’s ludicrous and actually unproductive

MyNameWasTaken wrote: ↑ You’re on that old school mentality. If you’re a boss you should expect that parents are going to pick up their kids and that is OK. Just make sure the work gets done. Most people will adapt to flex. For decades we’ve bitched and moaned about flexible work life balance and remote workings. Let’s embrace it rather than being pessimistic. Those who can manage their desk and at highly organized will continue to be so. And if someone goes to the gym, so what? Change of scene boosts creativity. I would never expect anyone wfh to sit in front of their desk all day. That’s luscious and actually unproductive

There's nothing old school about it. The more recent studies have shown that wfh is generally less productive for most people. Heck, even that older Ctrip.com study shows an increase in employee dissatisfaction after 6 months of working home as most of those who were working from home wanted to return to the office. In my experience, a dissatisfied employee will show a drop in productivity and engagement over time. Sure, for some, wfh is great as it fits into their personality as it allows them to focus in their environment for their situation but for others, not so much.

craftsman wrote: ↑ There's nothing old school about it. The more recent studies have shown that wfh is generally less productive for most people. Heck, even that older Ctrip.com study shows an increase in employee dissatisfaction after 6 months of working home as most of those who were working from home wanted to return to the office. In my experience, a dissatisfied employee will show a drop in productivity and engagement over time. Sure, for some, wfh is great as it fits into their personality as it allows them to focus in their environment for their situation but for others, not so much.

It is not for everybody and that is ok. You cannot accurately measure wfh during a pandemic. That is so disingenuous IMO. People who wfh don't stay home all day pre-covid. They'd hit up a coffee shop, patio, do some yoga in the afternoon, meet clients for lunch, pop into office a couple days a week, go to the gym, etc. You cannot do any of this now, which is why wfh isn't as effective as it normally is. However, for those who are dissatisfied, remember there are millions unemployed or putting their lives on the line in the pandemic in manufacturing and retail sectors and cannot wfh, so sometimes it's good to look at your fortunes too.

See reddit thread

moofur wrote: ↑ That is exactly what they mean. Naive people will honestly think that this is a good thing. Be careful what you wish for.

The cons far outweigh the pros in my opinion.

1. Potential outsourcing
2. Lower salaries to adjust for you living in a cheaper city/town (like what Facebook and some tech companies are already doing)
3. Out of sight, out of mind for those who don't go into the office
4. You're implicitly expected to be available around the clock. Even if that isn't the expectation, there will inevitably be people who will be since it's so convenient given that your workstation is always set up, and you will find yourself competing with those people

And the list goes on. Honestly, be careful what you wish for.

1. Outsourcing is absolutely given but why is that a necessarily a bad thing? The more linear, repetitive, trackable jobs are being outsourced. But what you also see is the jobs where soft skills and technical experience that don't come from a book are increasingly valuable. I would argue the only people that should fear are the ones who are just happy to coast or have somebody do their thinking for them. You're right some people are at risk but not everyone has to fear.

2. Again what's the problem here? You move somewhere with lower cost so you get lower pay but your relative spending power remains the same. Don't like it move back somewhere with higher cost of living and higher pay. Some like the city some don't. if you were to go to a lower cost of living location and find it in office job there, you'd be making lower pay, too.

3. Yeah, no. I laugh when people say this. It's either people who aren't used to working with dispersed teams or simply aren't strong candidates (see 1. above...). I work with people in Asia and across US and Canada. Somehow promotions and recognition don't stop despite us all being remote to each other. In fact, as we've become more digital, it's actually the people who can still be productive while remote who are getting ahead, not those who think coming into the office is the check mark they need to get that next promotion.

4. I'll agree with you there to a point. It's bad now in this regard but definitely wasn't the case pre pandemic in all jobs. It's really company culture / industry specific. I suspect this is going to be more the case because people are just used to it after a year. But again going back to 1 and 3... If you've got the skills to be noticed you don't have to necessarily grunt it out.

At the end of the day like someone said above it's not for everyone and in office will never go away entirely, even in industries like tech. But what boggles my mind is that people still see remote work as black and white, all "bad".

MyNameWasTaken wrote: ↑ It is not for everybody and that is ok. You cannot accurately measure wfh during a pandemic. That is so disingenuous IMO. People who wfh don't stay home all day pre-covid. They'd hit up a coffee shop, patio, do some yoga in the afternoon, meet clients for lunch, pop into office a couple days a week, go to the gym, etc. You cannot do any of this now, which is why wfh isn't as effective as it normally is. However, for those who are dissatisfied, remember there are millions unemployed or putting their lives on the line in the pandemic in manufacturing and retail sectors and cannot wfh, so sometimes it's good to look at your fortunes too.

See reddit thread

Some thoughts.. you'll be more under the eyeball if it looks like you're 'goofing' off. At work, it was more like a 'check in' then you can goof off.

Once it's more formal, depending on team, company culture, you're going to be expected to look professional on camera, and depending how people do it, manager style, etc., the WFH person can be outcast out of resentment in some ways. Again, that's over time.

Alot of 30 year olds have moved out far thinking they're going in 1 or max 2x a week for life. Well, in about 10 years, agism will be real. Yes, people in their 40s and especially closer to 50 gets cast as the old person, especially when a whole new crop of young gunners having in the office will work their way in more.

Promotion? For the most part, the ones coming in still will likely keep getting it.

Of course 'Tech' people are immune unless you fall behind the next generation of developers and coders.

Getting a new manager, restructuring, word will get around. Over time, it'll still revert back to what the sociopaths who run these corporations want it as... control and oversight.

Then, with a WFH culture, you can damn bet more will add in more sophisticated monitoring software

This isn't for all, but a large part I think that's overlooked.

MP3_SKY wrote: ↑ I work from home since March as well, you have to be very discipline when working at home. Some people think you are a free man when able to work at home, you can go to Gym, Go coffee or lunch whenever you want, etc.
It is completely different, a lot of stats shows that the productivity is higher for those working from home. Without having to stress with commute to catch your bus or Go Train, people tend to stay over and finish their work beyond their shift,

Yes, work remote mean you can work anywhere and also means that you CAN work anytime anywhere. I always work over hours on evening and week-end.

At a certain point of career, you no longer a 9-5 man/woman, unless you are working at assembly line or jobs that are strictly hours rate. A lot of jobs, if you need to get things done, you have to get it done, we don't look at the clock.

I'm in a big 5 bank in analytics and productivity is down about 30% on an aggregate level and down way more if we measure it against productivity/hr

It's gotten much worse since the summer too. The first few months when people were sent home , productivity was consistent but that has dropped constantly over time

I can see everything from time on task on computer, idle time, login time, how much data activity is being transferred on vpn connection, and how long any particular task/report takes and measure it against benchmark (pre wfh). How long logged in during meetings, emails sent/rec'd etc...that's all collected and analyzed.

We have A LOT of data and have crunched the numbers, majority of roles had productivity fall quite a lot with wfh and normally, those workers will be placed on monitoring and improvement plan if it were normal times

Anedoctally from conversations to see why there's such a drop off, it's partly much more distractions at home, less collaboration and difficult to connect and a quick 30sec conversations outside office/cubicle is now either a quick email/slack or virtual meeting and people taking advantage of nobody else can see what they're doing (or not)

StatsGuy wrote: ↑ I'm in a big 5 bank in analytics and productivity is down about 30% on an aggregate level and down way more if we measure it against productivity/hr

It's gotten much worse since the summer too. The first few months when people were sent home , productivity was consistent but that has dropped constantly over time

I can see everything from time on task on computer, idle time, login time, how much data activity is being transferred on vpn connection, and how long any particular task/report takes and measure it against benchmark (pre wfh). How long logged in during meetings, emails sent/rec'd etc...that's all collected and analyzed.

We have A LOT of data and have crunched the numbers, majority of roles had productivity fall quite a lot with wfh and normally, those workers will be placed on monitoring and improvement plan if it were normal times

Anedoctally from conversations to see why there's such a drop off, it's partly much more distractions at home, less collaboration and difficult to connect and a quick 30sec conversations outside office/cubicle is now either a quick email/slack or virtual meeting and people taking advantage of nobody else can see what they're doing (or not)

You don't think it's because people are working at home during a PANDEMIC vs intentionally? You don't think it's an entire workforce, many of whom have never worked from home and whom employers have NEVER supported with WFH infrastructure (tech and ppl mgmt perspective) all trying to figure it out together at the same time?

You don't think it's because also people aredealing with kids at home, stress, fear, anxiety, burnout, etc?

Is everyone really in the exact same situation as if they were WFH without a pandemic?

Since when did correlation equal causation?