Personal Finance

SIN number - is there a way to "give up" and "close" the Social Insurance # account?

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  • Nov 7th, 2019 8:18 am
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SIN number - is there a way to "give up" and "close" the Social Insurance # account?

Here's a question for all the finance / legal gurus around here... or anyone else who might know more on this.

I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.

Is it possible to give it up somehow, as in close that account with the government & CRA?

If so, how and where?

I'm just curious, as I've just thought about it and never seen anything in relation to this anywhere... as if the SIN is required of every Canadian even if they are not working or don't really need it, as some sort of a record their taxes are collected under.

Is it then possible to close that account as well somehow?

Anyone?
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fantom wrote: Here's a question for all the finance / legal gurus around here... or anyone else who might know more on this.

I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.

Is it possible to give it up somehow, as in close that account with the government & CRA?

If so, how and where?

I'm just curious, as I've just thought about it and never seen anything in relation to this anywhere... as if the SIN is required of every Canadian even if they are not working or don't really need it, as some sort of a record their taxes are collected under.

Is it then possible to close that account as well somehow?

Anyone?
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fantom wrote: Here's a question for all the finance / legal gurus around here... or anyone else who might know more on this.

I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.

Is it possible to give it up somehow, as in close that account with the government & CRA?

If so, how and where?

I'm just curious, as I've just thought about it and never seen anything in relation to this anywhere... as if the SIN is required of every Canadian even if they are not working or don't really need it, as some sort of a record their taxes are collected under.

Is it then possible to close that account as well somehow?

Anyone?
renounce your citizenship

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fantom wrote: Here's a question for all the finance / legal gurus around here... or anyone else who might know more on this.

I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.

Is it possible to give it up somehow, as in close that account with the government & CRA?

If so, how and where?

I'm just curious, as I've just thought about it and never seen anything in relation to this anywhere... as if the SIN is required of every Canadian even if they are not working or don't really need it, as some sort of a record their taxes are collected under.

Is it then possible to close that account as well somehow?

Anyone?
You'll hear from the CRA very soon.
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fantom wrote: Here's a question for all the finance / legal gurus around here... or anyone else who might know more on this.

I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.
If you're self-employed, you still pay taxes (unless you're a cheater). If you have an income-generating inheritance, you still pay taxes. Even money kept in a bank account generates interest, which is taxable. A Tax-Free Savings Account uses your SIN as well. Passive income is usually taxable. Someone on welfare still has a SIN (to get their GST credit, among other things). There are homeless people on welfare who do their taxes and get the meager benefits.

Your taxes fund services, such as health care and police. Unless you're an Asgardian god in disguise you will have healthcare needs. Your SIN is connected to the Canada Pension Plan (which you would collect after retirement, or if you become disabled), funded by your contributions when you were working, and is connected to Old Age Security. I know someone who didn't give up their SIN (as that's not possible) but worked under the table, so they never paid income tax and never contributed to the CPP. They got sick and could not collect CPP Disability since they never paid into it, and will have to survive for at least five years before they can collect Guaranteed Income Supplement, which is also connected to their SIN. Living without a safety net is stupid, unless you have a functioning crystal ball and have the health status of Superman.

You do not give up your SIN if you move out of the country. (You might move back, and you can still collect CPP outside of the country.) You do not give up your SIN even if you give up your citizenship. You do not give up your SIN even upon death. Death and taxes.

It sounds like you have been talking to someone about OPCA stuff. You can get a definition here: https://www.macleans.ca/politics/court- ... following/ Basically, you're trying something very dangerous legally.
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Jan 15, 2017
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You are confusing your SIN number with your CRA account - two different beasts.

You don't have a SIN account. Your SIN is nothing more than an identifier used by different government departments. Using this identifier, the departments then create an "account" based on the needs of that department. For CRA, it creates a tax account for you. For Service Canada, it may use it to create an EI account or a pension benefits account.
[OP]
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skeet50 wrote: You are confusing your SIN number with your CRA account - two different beasts.

You don't have a SIN account. Your SIN is nothing more than an identifier used by different government departments. Using this identifier, the departments then create an "account" based on the needs of that department. For CRA, it creates a tax account for you. For Service Canada, it may use it to create an EI account or a pension benefits account.
Gotcha.

So is it possible then to cancel the SIN # somehow, and thus cut that connection with any one of these departments that might have used it to create accounts for you?

Theoretically (or practically, if anyone knows how) speaking...
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Can't wait to read this tax court case in a few years...
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The government is not like Facebook where you can delete your account lol.
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fantom wrote: Gotcha.

So is it possible then to cancel the SIN # somehow, and thus cut that connection with any one of these departments that might have used it to create accounts for you?

Theoretically (or practically, if anyone knows how) speaking...
No, you cannot cancel a SIN number in this manner. The gov't will keep a record of all numbers. And all these departments have records on you that have many other data points in their records. Deleting one data point will not delete the record.

The only time that you can get a new SIN number is if you can prove that your SIN has been stolen or has been used in identity theft. When this happens, they replace one SIN with another SIN. While the first SIN may be viewed as being cancelled - it will forever be linked to the new SIN so cancelled is not really the correct terminology to use - replaced is.
Last edited by skeet50 on Oct 17th, 2019 10:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Messerschmitt wrote: renounce your citizenship
bai
fantom wrote: Gotcha.

So is it possible then to cancel the SIN # somehow, and thus cut that connection with any one of these departments that might have used it to create accounts for you?

Theoretically (or practically, if anyone knows how) speaking...
The Only way to "cancel" a SIN is to get a new one , and then the old SIN gets transferred to the new one.
- drop mic -

p.s: the SIN is also used to track money the government owes you BTW. you will need to keep it.
----
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fantom wrote: Here's a question for all the finance / legal gurus around here... or anyone else who might know more on this.

I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.

Is it possible to give it up somehow, as in close that account with the government & CRA?

If so, how and where?

I'm just curious, as I've just thought about it and never seen anything in relation to this anywhere... as if the SIN is required of every Canadian even if they are not working or don't really need it, as some sort of a record their taxes are collected under.

Is it then possible to close that account as well somehow?

Anyone?
Yes and one way is if you are given new identity by RCMP. That is legal way. Otherwise you can just assume or steal someones identity. Like my neighbor with Marijuana grow-op dealer. When he was busted everyone knew all his ids were stolen one. By the way off topic that hose sold for about 700K few years back. EVen with all the problems.
Tried new coffee and doughnut. Found same old stale thing. expected bill of six bucks but it was 600 million. Big mistake so the guy said don't worry it is on the house. going back to McD.
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they gave my dad a SIN number when he came to canada, he lost his card, He went to get a new card but he got a new number, years later he inquired with service canada and they looked into it and sure enough he had two sin numbers, instead of giving him a new card they gave him a whole new number too and left the old number active still tied to his name, in the eyes of service canada it looked like two people using two different sins,. so after their investigation they concluded they were both his sin numbers and cancelled his old number. but yeah he worked under the old sin so they probably had to transfer some of his pension and benefits to the new one behind the scenes and stuff.
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GoodFellaz wrote: they gave my dad a SIN number when he came to canada, he lost his card, He went to get a new card but he got a new number, years later he inquired with service canada and they looked into it and sure enough he had two sin numbers, instead of giving him a new card they gave him a whole new number too and left the old number active still tied to his name, in the eyes of service canada it looked like two people using two different sins,. so after their investigation they concluded they were both his sin numbers and cancelled his old number. but yeah he worked under the old sin so they probably had to transfer some of his pension and benefits to the new one behind the scenes and stuff.
The card itself is actually irrelevant, the only important thing is the number. These days they don't even issue cards anymore, new SINs are provided in a government letter.

Also common to have multiple SINs for 1 person. Most common way is when someone is working in Canada under a work permit or under some other temporary means, they have a SIN number that designates them as such. Once that person gets PR status and can stay in Canada permanently, they issue a brand new SIN number. However both SINs will always be linked together and to the person so if an employer continued to use the old SIN it should automatically link to new one.

Even in your dad's case, the 2nd SIN he got would have been linked to the original one so I bet both are still on his record at some level of government. Nothing is ever truly cancelled.
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fantom wrote: Here's a question for all the finance / legal gurus around here... or anyone else who might know more on this.

I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.

Is it possible to give it up somehow, as in close that account with the government & CRA?

If so, how and where?

I'm just curious, as I've just thought about it and never seen anything in relation to this anywhere... as if the SIN is required of every Canadian even if they are not working or don't really need it, as some sort of a record their taxes are collected under.

Is it then possible to close that account as well somehow?

Anyone?
In a word - no. Although in your scenarios the SIN is no longer needed for an employer, it’s still needed in your scenarios when filing taxes. Presumably the passive income being earned is rent, interest, capital gains, dividends, etc. and earning any income from these types of sources requireS you to file a tax return, which requires a SIN. Independently wealthy people, retired people, etc are all required to file tax returns if they earn any sort of income like this.

Additionally, during the time when you’re paying taxes via employment or running your own business you’ll be building up eligibility to claim your pension under CPP. then there are other benefits that you may be entitled to like OAS, etc. All of this requires a SIN for the government to track & manage. So, you’ll basically be filing a return for the rest of your life and this means you’ll be stuck with needing a SIN.
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rob444 wrote: Even in your dad's case, the 2nd SIN he got would have been linked to the original one so I bet both are still on his record at some level of government. Nothing is ever truly cancelled.
i know that sin cards dont exist anymore and they give a piece of paper now, the fact is, my dads old sin and new sin were never linked untill he physically went to service canada and they opened an investigation for him, both had different addresses and spelling of his name,
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CanadianLurker wrote: In a word - no. Although in your scenarios the SIN is no longer needed for an employer, it’s still needed in your scenarios when filing taxes. Presumably the passive income being earned is rent, interest, capital gains, dividends, etc. and earning any income from these types of sources requireS you to file a tax return, which requires a SIN. Independently wealthy people, retired people, etc are all required to file tax returns if they earn any sort of income like this.

Additionally, during the time when you’re paying taxes via employment or running your own business you’ll be building up eligibility to claim your pension under CPP. then there are other benefits that you may be entitled to like OAS, etc. All of this requires a SIN for the government to track & manage. So, you’ll basically be filing a return for the rest of your life and this means you’ll be stuck with needing a SIN.
I find that hard to believe SIN is not required for an employer. How is an employer going to deduct and submit taxes for an employee to the gov’t if no SIN is provided?
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ml88888888 wrote: I find that hard to believe SIN is not required for an employer. How is an employer going to deduct and submit taxes for an employee to the gov’t if no SIN is provided?
OP was saying:

“I get that we all needed (or most of us) a SIN number to be able to work in this country at some point, but for some people there comes a time when they've started their own businesses and cashed them out nicely, or came into nice inheritance and won't need to work for anyone any time soon (so they won't get asked for a SIN number to prove they are legally allowed to work in the country), or they get some sort of passive income they are living off of... and don't really need the SIN number anymore.“

The premise being if you never needed to be employed then why would you need a SIN and how could you then cancel.

My point was meant to say that even if an independently wealthy person wouldn’t need to show it to an employer because they would never need a job they would still need it for all the other reasons I noted.

So yes, employers would still need to see it.
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Aug 26, 2017
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Dealmaker1945 wrote: The government is not like Facebook where you can delete your account lol.
Actually facebook is worse because they PRETEND to delete your account
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Seems suspicious. OP has already been told they need a SIN to collect CPP, yet he still wants to shut it down. Doesn't make sense...

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