Real Estate

Smith Manoeuvre

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http://www.leaderpost.com/business/fp/m ... story.html
While the creator of the eponymous Smith Manoeuvre, Fraser Smith, is sadly no longer with us, the tax-savings movement he spawned is very much alive and well in Canada.

Born in 1938, Smith died of cancer on Sept. 25 at age 74.
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Hi Mark,

Yes, we owe him a lot. He started a movement that has made a lot of difference in the lives of a lot of people.

I wrote a tribute to him: http://www.milliondollarjourney.com/a-t ... -smith.htm .




Ed
Ed Rempel
FEE-FOR SERVICE FINANCIAL PLANNER & TAX ACCOUNTANT
Email: ed@edrempel.com
Unconventional Wisdom blog: www.edrempel.com
To have unconventional success, you can’t be guided by conventional wisdom.” -David Swenson
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Feb 13, 2008
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I am looking to start the Smith Manoeuvre and I bank with TD. Anybody use the TD HELOC? How does one set it up?
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Oct 6, 2008
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Hey -

I've been reading about the Smith Manoeuvre for almost a year now.

I seem to go in spurts where I'm 90% certain I'm going to do it, then I back off.

I sat with my financial advisor a couple of nights ago, to discuss it again.

There's something that's bugging me about it, and I'm not sure what. Maybe nerves?

I asked my CFP if it's so good, why isn't everyone doing it? He said two reasons:

1) You need to be somewhat aggressive to want to do this (which I am)
2) You need to be a long term investor, and long term resident in your house for the future (which I am)

I then proceeded to ask him how many clients he has done this, and he said 2. He's with IG by the way.

I currently pretty much max out my RRSP's every year through company and personal contributions and the company does not have a DB plan.

My home is currently valued at 250K, was purchased for 137K 8 years ago, and I have somewhere around 100K left to pay.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what's making me uncertain about pulling the trigger? Maybe the risk, maybe the inexperience of my CFP. I'm not sure.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brad
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Dec 27, 2008
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bradatkins wrote: Hey -

I've been reading about the Smith Manoeuvre for almost a year now.

I seem to go in spurts where I'm 90% certain I'm going to do it, then I back off.

I sat with my financial advisor a couple of nights ago, to discuss it again.

There's something that's bugging me about it, and I'm not sure what. Maybe nerves?

I asked my CFP if it's so good, why isn't everyone doing it? He said two reasons:

1) You need to be somewhat aggressive to want to do this (which I am)
2) You need to be a long term investor, and long term resident in your house for the future (which I am)

I then proceeded to ask him how many clients he has done this, and he said 2. He's with IG by the way.

I currently pretty much max out my RRSP's every year through company and personal contributions and the company does not have a DB plan.

My home is currently valued at 250K, was purchased for 137K 8 years ago, and I have somewhere around 100K left to pay.

Does anyone have any suggestions as to what's making me uncertain about pulling the trigger? Maybe the risk, maybe the inexperience of my CFP. I'm not sure.

Any feedback is appreciated.

Thanks,
Brad


I'd be nervous about dealing with your IG rep who has only done it for 2 people. Is he doing it himself???
He will likely ask you to be a long term investor, sell you IG only funds, and DSC the heck out of you, and you'll be locked up for 5-7 years. He'll then say let's rebalance 10% each year. That portion is the amount you are able to unlock from DSC and he will front load the mutual fund and collect a 1% trailer. On a 100k its a nice 5200 pay day for him.
Your MERs will be in the 2.6% range.

Personally I do the SM myself, I use a fee based account, @ 1.1%, and use direct securities. As its much easier to track dividends. Remember if the funds he chooses return you ANY return of capital, you can't claim the portion of interest. Just a FYI
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Oct 6, 2008
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kerdon wrote: I'd be nervous about dealing with your IG rep who has only done it for 2 people. Is he doing it himself???
He will likely ask you to be a long term investor, sell you IG only funds, and DSC the heck out of you, and you'll be locked up for 5-7 years. He'll then say let's rebalance 10% each year. That portion is the amount you are able to unlock from DSC and he will front load the mutual fund and collect a 1% trailer. On a 100k its a nice 5200 pay day for him.
Your MERs will be in the 2.6% range.

Personally I do the SM myself, I use a fee based account, @ 1.1%, and use direct securities. As its much easier to track dividends. Remember if the funds he chooses return you ANY return of capital, you can't claim the portion of interest. Just a FYI

So I guess there's two things that bug me:

1) Lack of confidence in my CFP
2) Lack of detailed understanding/knowledge to do the investing portion myself.

Does anyone do this through a CFP?
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Sometimes there are uncommon ideas with uncommonly good results. If many people are not aggressive nor financially literate, then it is understandable that not a lot of people do this.

However, if you include how many people just simply borrowed from a HELOC to invest in the stock market, then it wouldn't surprise me to see the number of people is higher doing this than the SM. The former is kind of a "one shot" jump start that may coincide with a particular low in the markets. SM typically is done as a long term, trickle investing strategy.

If you feel competent enough to buy index ETFs or index mutual funds or maybe a balanced collection of blue chip dividend paying companies for your RRSP or TFSA, then what makes this so different?
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Oct 30, 2008
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The key concepts when borrowing to invest are:

1) Making sure the cost of borrowing is tax-deductible (investing in qualified investments)
2) Making sure the choice of investments is tax-efficient
3) Making sure that you're using the right mortgage/LOC product for this strategy
3) You must remain diversified and ensure that there are proper risk mitigation strategies in place (for example, borrowing $50,000 to buy $50,000 of TD Bank stock is not a wise strategy)

While any financial planner can put this strategy to work, we've done these with a fee-only planner specializing in low-cost investing (ETFs and individual stocks). Kerdon mentioned good reasons why fee-based advisers are better for this strategy than your typical mutual fund salesperson. The mortgage and LOC should be discussed with a mortgage adviser and NOT the financial planner. Some financial planners out there are somewhat picky with the kind of LOC they want to the client to get. It's important to make sure that the planner and mortgage adviser are on the same track and that you're not getting conflicting advice.

Contrary to popular belief, you don't need to be an "aggressive" investor to do this; you need to be responsible, yes, and be comfortable with leverage. This means you have little "bad" debt (i.e. high balance on credit cards, high interest loans, etc.) and a steady source of income. This strategy works best for individuals with a long investment horizon.
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edrempel wrote: Hi Everyone,

If you are thinking at the Smith Manoeuvre, a good time to start is when the markets are very cheap, like today. We have not had P/Es under 12 combined with low interest rates since the early 1950s.

There is a lot of negative news, but there is always negative news when the markets are cheap. Plus, we think that NONE of the major items feared in the news will happen. "Fear of a False Factor is Favourable"

If you stay focused on the long term, the markets have always gone up over 15-year periods, and the worst ever 25-year period is 5%/year (more than tripling your money).




Ed
+1 I posted about this on my blog. For the right individual, today's valuations can be a very attractive proposition especially high quality stocks. There may be additional losses as the whole Europe debt fiasco continues to unravel but there are dozens of companies out there trading at very attractive multiples. Look up the November issue of Moneysense for a partial list of Canadian stocks.
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liorsyncro wrote: The key concepts when borrowing to invest are:

1) Making sure the cost of borrowing is tax-deductible (investing in qualified investments)
2) Making sure the choice of investments is tax-efficient
3) Making sure that you're using the right mortgage/LOC product for this strategy
4) You must remain diversified and ensure that there are proper risk mitigation strategies in place (for example, borrowing $50,000 to buy $50,000 of TD Bank stock is not a wise strategy)
5) Make sure you're not fully reliant on a single lender or source of collateral (ie: if you buy stocks, make sure they can be borrowed against just in case the ability to use your house for credit is diminished).

6) Don't use 100% of your possible/available resources/credit limits; this can lead to the lenders believing you are under stress and engaging in predatory behaviour.

7) Don't invest in products that are highly correlated with your real estate. ie: REITs, or a second "investment property" are big no-no for SM investors. SM investors also should generally not invest in mortgages or fixed income securities.
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Oct 6, 2008
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cannon_fodder wrote: ...
If you feel competent enough to buy index ETFs or index mutual funds or maybe a balanced collection of blue chip dividend paying companies for your RRSP or TFSA, then what makes this so different?
I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm not very investment savy. I think what I'm looking for is for "someone" to give me the flowchart of the SM, and advise me what to buy.

I'm a process oriented type person, so if I need to do X every month, no problems, but determining what X is, is the question. Something like this: Image

I guess my expectations of my CFP were that he would lay everything out on the table. ie get a HELOC, setup seperate bank account, purchase investments, take monthly dividend and pay HELOC, etc, etc. That doesn't seem to be the case.
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I'm not sure if I should go ahead with the SM right now. It's not that I don't want to, but I'd have to break my current mortgage contract and sign with another bank, as my bank does not offer a readvanceable mortgage.

Our mortgage is currently $600,000 and we are paying a variable of Prime - .85 or 2.15%, 5 year term, 35 year amortization period.

If we break our mortgage, we would have pay an estimated $3000 in interest penalty (3 months worth).

Also, the best variable rate right now is Prime - .45 or 2.55% for a 5 year term. So if we jump onto this higher variable rate for the remainder of our term (roughly a bit more than 4 years), we have pay an estimated extra $11,000 in interest. The total additional interest and penalty is $14,000. Ouch. :mad:

Instead, I was thinking that I could set up an initial HELOC at $100,000 this year and then increase it on a yearly basis, rather than a biweekly/monthly basis. I intend to put $22,000 in prepayment on top of our regular mortgage payment every year, along with whatever dividends are earned into the principal. That then gets converted into the HELOC. Then when the time comes to renew our mortgage, I would sign up for a readvancable one then.

I am not sure if this would be cost-efficient though as I have never set up a HELOC before and do not know if there would be fees associated with increasing the HELOC every time, but I presume it would be nowhere near as much as $14,000.

Thoughts?
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Chasem wrote: I'm not sure if I should go ahead with the SM right now. It's not that I don't want to, but I'd have to break my current mortgage contract and sign with another bank, as my bank does not offer a readvanceable mortgage.

Thoughts?

Almost sounds like you're in a situation where if you have to get the loan re-done, the extra interest you would be paying would actually exceed the value of the tax deduction. Instead, you might want to look into simply using some of your prepayment money to buy stocks in a TFSA (or RRSP if you're not maxxing them out).

A 35-year amortization period instantly raises a bunch of red flags -- why did you select that in the first place? Not that you made a bad choice (I mean, if you could get such an amortization period and not pay an interest rate premium -- then that was good dealing on your part!), but too much leverage can be very dangerous when doing the SM as well. I'm suspecting your house is in the $700-$800k range -- and that's probably "ground zero" for a Canadian housing market collapse as units that expensive have a very limited market to be bought up as distressed assets in the future.

If you're not already maximizing the RRSP's -- do that, without question, because, at least if the market in Canada does collapse housing-wise, you will have protected a good chunk of your savings from creditors.
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Mark77 wrote: Almost sounds like you're in a situation where if you have to get the loan re-done, the extra interest you would be paying would actually exceed the value of the tax deduction.

Yeah, this is what I figured. I did a bit of math and it seems that I will be having to fork out a few thousand overall, even after tax savings.
Instead, you might want to look into simply using some of your prepayment money to buy stocks in a TFSA (or RRSP if you're not maxxing them out).
Thanks for suggesting this. I had not contemplated using the prepayments to max out the TFSA and/or RRSPs. The question is, would I save more in mortgage interest if I make the prepayment towards the house or would I save more in taxes if I put them in a TFSA/RRSP?
A 35-year amortization period instantly raises a bunch of red flags -- why did you select that in the first place?
I actually wanted a 20 year amortization period when I first started mortgage rate shopping. After realizing that the banks gave various prepayment options, it made sense to go with a 35 year amortization period instead. Our current payments allow us to pay our mortgage off in 15 years. That is obviously what we would prefer to do if everything goes smoothly. Life is not always so smooth though. In the event that my wife or I lost our job, we wanted to be able to have a bit of breathing room with our payments until we get back on the job market. So we selected the 35 year amortization period, but pay it off like it were a 15 to 20 year amortization period.
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jlow86 wrote: I am looking to start the Smith Manoeuvre and I bank with TD. Anybody use the TD HELOC? How does one set it up?

Hi Jlow,

The TD HELOC works well for the SM. They are usually very competitive on rates, as well, although they do not offer variable mortgages in the HELOC.

What do you want to know about setting it up?


Ed
Ed Rempel
FEE-FOR SERVICE FINANCIAL PLANNER & TAX ACCOUNTANT
Email: ed@edrempel.com
Unconventional Wisdom blog: www.edrempel.com
To have unconventional success, you can’t be guided by conventional wisdom.” -David Swenson
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bradatkins wrote: I think you hit the nail on the head. I'm not very investment savy. I think what I'm looking for is for "someone" to give me the flowchart of the SM, and advise me what to buy.

I'm a process oriented type person, so if I need to do X every month, no problems, but determining what X is, is the question. Something like this: Image

I guess my expectations of my CFP were that he would lay everything out on the table. ie get a HELOC, setup seperate bank account, purchase investments, take monthly dividend and pay HELOC, etc, etc. That doesn't seem to be the case.

Hi Brad,

I'm sure that is the reason for your hesitation, Brad. In the end, the Smith Manoeuvre is a strategy of borrowing to invest, so the main factors in succeeding are your ability to have faith in the long term strategy and having an effective investment strategy.

To figure out whether the SM is right for you, you need to be the type of person that will be able to stick with the strategy through the inevitable bear markets. The investments can be done the same as your RRSPs and other investments, but I can tell you from experience doing the SM myself and with several hundred client families that quite a few people feel different with leveraged investments than non-leveraged.

This can especially true if you start out with a significant lump sum. In your case, you have $100,000 equity that you could invest right away. If you borrowed $100,000 to invest and the market went into a major bear market - let's say it is down 30% - will you be able to stick with your strategy? That would mean that your investments could be down to $70,000 while you still owe $100,000 on your credit line plus the interest you paid from the credit line. There is usually lots of negative news out to add to pessimism at that time.

That is the worst case scenario. I bring it up because it is possible and because that is how you deal with fear. If you would panic and sell or stop investing in a bear market, then this is probably not the right strategy for you. However, if you can tolerate the worst case scenario and stick with the strategy long term, then it is highly likely to be very successful for you.

From experience, we have found that clients that always have faith in the strategy and their investments long term tend to make the right decisions, and have good experiences and results with the SM. Those that are nervous about the markets or the economy, or lose faith when there is a lot of bad news tend to make the wrong choices and to have disappointing results.

The setup can vary since there are 7 different Smith Manoeuvre strategies. The right strategy depends on your objective, your risk tolerance, and how aggressively you want to build wealth.

It is always best to do the SM as part of a comprehensive, written financial plan. It should be fully a part of your life goals, which is then both the reason to do it and the reason to stick with it.

Is your MAIN goal from the SM to:

1. Build wealth and provide for your retirement.
2. Pay off your mortgage faster.
3. Provide additional income now (instead of building wealth).

The most appropriate reason is #1. #2 is possible, but questionable. Borrowing money to invest for the purpose of reducing debt means you have to think clearly about what you are doing. #3 is mainly for retirees and is only a good idea in rare circumstances.

The drawing in your post is generally accurate for most of the strategies, except for 2 things:

1. Line 8 - It is best to keep your tax deductible accounts completely separate from non-deductible accounts. If you want to make extra lump sums, you should make them directly from your main chequing and not mix it with your SM chequing (if you have one). In most cases, we find the SM chequing account unnecessary, since it is possible to invest directly from the SM credit line.
2. Line 7 - In most cases, there are NO monthly dividends. It is possible to invest for taxable dividends, but if this is your main goal, you are limiting your investment choices. You mentioned MONTHLY dividends, which sounds like the Smith/Snyder strategy that some advisors and mortgage brokers use. It involves receiving monthly non-taxable payments from investments that are considered "return of capital" (ROC). This strategies causes tax issues and reduces the deductibility of your credit line over time. The most effective SM strategies usually focus on long term growth, so there are not usually monthly dividends.

The investment strategy is key because you must have a solid strategy that you will be able to have faith in during bear markets. In our case, we focus on finding the world's best investors and investing with them. When you find them, they are normally managing mutual funds (or sometimes hedge funds). I don't mean average mutual funds, but those managed by the best stock pickers. We call them "All Star Fund Managers" (Google it). I can tell you that if you focus on finding them, there are fund managers that beat the markets by wide margins over long periods of time after all fees. Identifying them is complex, but worth it.

Most of the bloggers here are DIYers and invest differently. Personally, I don't do amateur investing, I don't pick my own stocks, I don't buy index investments or buy into the latest popular trends. The current popular trend is "dividend-paying stocks", which tend to become popular after major bear markets and fall out of favour near the end of bull markets.

You can choose whichever strategy makes sense to you (or get advice). The key point, though, is that you do need to have a solid investment strategy that you believe in and that you will be able to maintain faith in right through the next bear market.

I hope that is helpful, Brad.


Ed
Ed Rempel
FEE-FOR SERVICE FINANCIAL PLANNER & TAX ACCOUNTANT
Email: ed@edrempel.com
Unconventional Wisdom blog: www.edrempel.com
To have unconventional success, you can’t be guided by conventional wisdom.” -David Swenson
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Oct 6, 2008
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edrempel wrote: Hi Brad,

This can especially true if you start out with a significant lump sum. In your case, you have $100,000 equity that you could invest right away. If you borrowed $100,000 to invest and the market went into a major bear market - let's say it is down 30% - will you be able to stick with your strategy? That would mean that your investments could be down to $70,000 while you still owe $100,000 on your credit line plus the interest you paid from the credit line. There is usually lots of negative news out to add to pessimism at that time.
This I can handle, it typically stings for a few days (ie when I get a quarterly statement and I'm down 17K, which has happened) I'm not too happy for a few days, but then get over it without doing anything irrational. No one likes to lose money (even in the short term). But I'm fairly young (31) so I have time on my side.

And to be perfectly honest, would I take all the equity out and leverage it right away? Probably not. I'd take at least the difference of what I owe minus what I bought it for (currently owe 89K, bought for 137K). Run that for a while (say 1 year) once I understand, then I can move forward with more.
edrempel wrote: Is your MAIN goal from the SM to:

1. Build wealth and provide for your retirement.
2. Pay off your mortgage faster.
3. Provide additional income now (instead of building wealth).
My goal is #1. I have in my past moved jobs, and given up company pension plans, as I do not have faith in them. No one is looking out for #1 (my family) other then my family. I want to ensure we have a secure future.
edrempel wrote: Most of the bloggers here are DIYers and invest differently. Personally, I don't do amateur investing, I don't pick my own stocks, I don't buy index investments or buy into the latest popular trends. The current popular trend is "dividend-paying stocks", which tend to become popular after major bear markets and fall out of favour near the end of bull markets.
Right, I'm less then an amateur investor. I'm good at a lot of things, and investing isn't one of them. I don't plan/want to be good at it either.

So to sum it up, I think I need the following to be comfortable:

1) Someone who knows what steps I need to take to do this properly
2) Someone who is an 'all star fund manager'

I've read pretty much everything I can find of yours, be it from your website or million dollar journey. I've signed up for your next webinar (hopefully it's soon :) )

So my question is, does a person like yourself do #1 and "hook people up" with the all star fund managers?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Brad
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Dec 27, 2008
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bradatkins wrote: This I can handle, it typically stings for a few days (ie when I get a quarterly statement and I'm down 17K, which has happened) I'm not too happy for a few days, but then get over it without doing anything irrational. No one likes to lose money (even in the short term). But I'm fairly young (31) so I have time on my side.

And to be perfectly honest, would I take all the equity out and leverage it right away? Probably not. I'd take at least the difference of what I owe minus what I bought it for (currently owe 89K, bought for 137K). Run that for a while (say 1 year) once I understand, then I can move forward with more.



My goal is #1. I have in my past moved jobs, and given up company pension plans, as I do not have faith in them. No one is looking out for #1 (my family) other then my family. I want to ensure we have a secure future.



Right, I'm less then an amateur investor. I'm good at a lot of things, and investing isn't one of them. I don't plan/want to be good at it either.

So to sum it up, I think I need the following to be comfortable:

1) Someone who knows what steps I need to take to do this properly
2) Someone who is an 'all star fund manager'

I've read pretty much everything I can find of yours, be it from your website or million dollar journey. I've signed up for your next webinar (hopefully it's soon :) )

So my question is, does a person like yourself do #1 and "hook people up" with the all star fund managers?

Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Brad


I would also check if our advisor is using DSC mutual funds, or fee-based? They are very different to advisor compensation.

I only run a fee based business, as my fiduciary duty is to the clients not to my pocket book.
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Reading back on some older posts when Pitz was still active on this thread, I see that some posters used an IB margin account. IB's interest rates are Prime -, whereas most HELOCs are Prime +.

I was thinking of setting up a combination of the two in order to blend the rates. At the amounts I am looking to invest, my rates would average to just under Prime if the HELOC is set up at Prime + 0.5%. The difference is easily 100 bps or more.

My concern is the dreaded margin call. IB's rules is that the if the market value of the portfolio drops below a certain threshold, they instantly liquidate. They don't phone, email or notify you if this is going to happen.

I assume there would have to be some proactiveness on my part to ensure that there is enough cash to cover the account in the event that value drops close to the threshold. Would I have leave a residual amount of cash in IB just to be safe? Would they pay interest on that dormant cash?

Also, has anyone here used IB as a full 100% replacement over a HELOC and care to share their thoughts on how they would handle the margin call if it were to happen.

Chasem
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Chasem wrote: My concern is the dreaded margin call. IB's rules is that the if the market value of the portfolio drops below a certain threshold, they instantly liquidate. They don't phone, email or notify you if this is going to happen.
At least they will liquidate you rapidly. Unlike other brokers, who might leave the market to keep going down, and then, all of the sudden, liquidate you a few days later.

I assume there would have to be some proactiveness on my part to ensure that there is enough cash to cover the account in the event that value drops close to the threshold. Would I have leave a residual amount of cash in IB just to be safe? Would they pay interest on that dormant cash?
Obviously you wouldn't want to be anywhere near the threshold for receiving a margin call, as it takes ~3 days to transfer cash into IB. If you have a $300k house, $200k paid off, and are inveseting $100k with the SM -- you might consider borrowing $50k of the cash from IB (ie: 2:1 leverage), and the other $50k from the HELOC. If the IB account goes down, putting you closer to the danger zone, simply make a transfer from the HELOC into IB. You'll never get your interests costs down fully to the IB rate, but you will be saving some.
Also, has anyone here used IB as a full 100% replacement over a HELOC and care to share their thoughts on how they would handle the margin call if it were to happen.
They liquidate enough stock to get your account back into compliance. If its a temporary bottom in the market, then merely repurchase the position the next day once things come back up. Sure, you'll have lost a bit of money in the friction, but the extra returns of leverage should, over time, compensate for that.

Ideally, you wouldn't leverage yourself so much as to get into a situation where there would be a deficiency in your margin/performance bond, versus what is required for your positions. The key here is to be conservative. Just because you have a HELOC + margin account, which, really, is a lot of rope that you can hang yourself with -- doesn't mean that you can/should use much of it.
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