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T5008 From CIBC IE - help newb!

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[OP]
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Oct 21, 2007
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Halifax

T5008 From CIBC IE - help newb!

Hi all, this was my first year doing some trading with a non-registered account. I did a lot of trades over the year. I see in my online Investors Edge account I have a T5008 report, but there isn't really a single slip summary like a T4 type thing. Rather it lists every trade I did, grouped by the companies with a summary total under each.
When doing my taxes with turbo tax, and I get to the T5008 form, am I supposed to fill out a T5008 for every trade??? Or do I fill one out for each company I traded and use the totals on the report (in which case, what date do I use if the trades were on several dates)??

Help!!!
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May 2, 2019
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gibson00 wrote: When doing my taxes with turbo tax, and I get to the T5008 form, am I supposed to fill out a T5008 for every trade??? Or do I fill one out for each company I traded and use the totals on the report (in which case, what date do I use if the trades were on several dates)??
First, T5008 does not necessarily has the correct information. Unlike T5 or T3 which are supposed to be accurate, T5008 is more on the "best effort" basis. It is your responsibility as a taxpayer, not the broker's, to ensure you report the correct capital gains/losses. T5008 might be accurate, or it might not account for things such as any Return of Capital, superficial losses, holdings that you have in more than one taxable account, correct foreign exchange rates, capital gains/losses on foreign currency, etc. Your active trading suggests that at least the superficial loss rule was likely in effect somewhere.

You'd need either to learn the rules yourself, or hire an accountant I suppose to determine if you should use the T5008 as provided by CIBC. adjustedcostbase.ca is a great site for the necessary information, as well as a tool to calculate those capital gains/losses, if you decide to learn.

I wonder why you even consider entering T5008 manually rather than downloading data from CRA My Account into Turbo Tax. That is by far the easiest way to do it, but not necessarily a correct one if T5008 happens to miss important details of your trades.

Whether T5008 is one or many per ticker (I'd choose one), what date is on the report - those are not essential questions. Some brokers do this, some that. Some put Dec 31 of the corresponding year as a date to avoid details. CRA wouldn't care. As long as you can demonstrate to them you calculate ACB (Adjusted Cost Base) and capital gains/losses according to their rules.
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yvrbanker wrote: First, T5008 does not necessarily has the correct information. Unlike T5 or T3 which are supposed to be accurate, T5008 is more on the "best effort" basis. It is your responsibility as a taxpayer, not the broker's, to ensure you report the correct capital gains/losses. T5008 might be accurate, or it might not account for things such as any Return of Capital, superficial losses, holdings that you have in more than one taxable account, correct foreign exchange rates, capital gains/losses on foreign currency, etc. Your active trading suggests that at least the superficial loss rule was likely in effect somewhere.

You'd need either to learn the rules yourself, or hire an accountant I suppose to determine if you should use the T5008 as provided by CIBC. adjustedcostbase.ca is a great site for the necessary information, as well as a tool to calculate those capital gains/losses, if you decide to learn.

I wonder why you even consider entering T5008 manually rather than downloading data from CRA My Account into Turbo Tax. That is by far the easiest way to do it, but not necessarily a correct one if T5008 happens to miss important details of your trades.

Whether T5008 is one or many per ticker (I'd choose one), what date is on the report - those are not essential questions. Some brokers do this, some that. Some put Dec 31 of the corresponding year as a date to avoid details. CRA wouldn't care. As long as you can demonstrate to them you calculate ACB (Adjusted Cost Base) and capital gains/losses according to their rules.
I am a CIBC IE customer. If you do not transfer equities from other companies, they do keep good tabs on ACB data. The T5008 is accurate. As far as the CRA goes, their T5008 database is item by item. If the CIBC IE T5008 has 10 items, each will be listed as a separate T5008 on the CRA site. It would be title by the equity/fund/ETF name.
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will888 wrote: I am a CIBC IE customer. If you do not transfer equities from other companies, they do keep good tabs on ACB data. The T5008 is accurate.
Good to know. I assume you mean it presents the transaction data correctly, which is totally expected. But is it appropriate for OP to use it as is for tax reporting? I wouldn't dare to recommend without knowing details. Any of caveats I mentioned, Return of Capital, superficial losses. Which foreign exchange rate do they use for any US stock transactions? The taxpayer can elect to use either daily or the average annual exchange rate for reporting. If they pick one method and the T5008 uses the other, well, then T5008 numbers should not be used.
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yvrbanker wrote: Good to know. I assume you mean it presents the transaction data correctly, which is totally expected. But is it appropriate for OP to use it as is for tax reporting? I wouldn't dare to recommend without knowing details. Any of caveats I mentioned, Return of Capital, superficial losses. Which foreign exchange rate do they use for any US stock transactions? The taxpayer can elect to use either daily or the average annual exchange rate for reporting. If they pick one method and the T5008 uses the other, well, then T5008 numbers should not be used.
I am saying the ACB values are correct. I have owned stocks and funds over the years and did my own tracking initially. What I found was the numbers I was getting in the monthly account statements were accurate and so I stopped the duplicate effort. There is a big caveat to the correctness. It is assumed that the particular security is owned with only one broker and it was purchased exclusively through that broker and not transferred in so that their bookkeeping is not compromised by insufficient data. In this forum, I see a lot of people like to switch brokers which is good way to render T5008 data inaccurate. For whatever little bit of advantage one broker offers from another, the headache of messing up the bookkeeping would defeat the gains.

I would agree with things like exchange rates. It has been a while since I sold a US holding. Numbers in USD has to be converted to CD and for the ACB conversion you could go back to the buying year and use the average exchange rate for that year or you can use an actual exchange rate if you have proof available if asked.
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[OP]
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Thanks folks, appreciate the info. I have no foreign stock trades in this account, all Canadian. From what I've read, it sounds like I -should- be able to just add up all the totals from each of the summaries under each company I traded, and fill in the result on the one t5008 in turbo tax. Hopefully that does the trick, I'm not trying to cheat or hide anything.
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Nov 16, 2005
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The CIBC I/E seemed have the ACB correctly report on T5008 but how we report those broker fees? It add on top when you buy and take away when you sell but it actually disappeared from the account....Is not it ?
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nice4 wrote: The CIBC I/E seemed have the ACB correctly report on T5008 but how we report those broker fees? It add on top when you buy and take away when you sell but it actually disappeared from the account....Is not it ?
The cost to sell should be found on the transaction statement. The T5008 only reports the gross proceeds from the sale. There is no breakdown for how much it costs to sell. It is too bad that they don't report the net proceeds instead of gross proceeds.
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nice4 wrote: The CIBC I/E seemed have the ACB correctly report on T5008 but how we report those broker fees?
will888 wrote: The T5008 only reports the gross proceeds from the sale.
If you use T5008 from CIBC IE, the numbers are actually net costs/proceeds. Don't report fees separately (leave as blank / 0).

At least for my IE account, the numbers from T5008 match the transaction summary (found in the same tax package). The transaction summary says:

"THIS IS A SUMMARY OF YOUR TRADING ACTIVITY IN 2020. FOR STOCK TRADES, THE DEBIT OR CREDIT SHOWN IN THE
AMOUNT COLUMN INCLUDES COMMISSION CHARGES."
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I'm having the same issues with Questrade - but I've noticed that they don't even include my options that expired at zero (and there are more than there should be)
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will888 wrote: I am saying the ACB values are correct. I have owned stocks and funds over the years and did my own tracking initially. What I found was the numbers I was getting in the monthly account statements were accurate and so I stopped the duplicate effort.
I think for most stocks you'd generally be fine. As soon as ETFs are involved, I think it's likely going to be wrong.

The T5008s are generated before the trust distribution characteristics are received by the brokerages. Since that data contains the return of capital amounts, it seems unlikely that the T5008 will be able to reliably have the correct data for ETFs sold in-year. The other thing I'd be concerned about are the phantom distributions, which aren't even included in the T3. Of course the CRA doesn't care, because if you mess up and forget to increase your cost base for the phantom distribution, you get double taxed when you sell.

It would be super nice if they did a second T5008 run and adjusted everything after the distribution characteristics were received, but I haven't seen that happen. Disappointed Face
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sckor wrote: I think for most stocks you'd generally be fine. As soon as ETFs are involved, I think it's likely going to be wrong.

The T5008s are generated before the trust distribution characteristics are received by the brokerages. Since that data contains the return of capital amounts, it seems unlikely that the T5008 will be able to reliably have the correct data for ETFs sold in-year. The other thing I'd be concerned about are the phantom distributions, which aren't even included in the T3. Of course the CRA doesn't care, because if you mess up and forget to increase your cost base for the phantom distribution, you get double taxed when you sell.

It would be super nice if they did a second T5008 run and adjusted everything after the distribution characteristics were received, but I haven't seen that happen. Disappointed Face
The T3 is supposed to include return of capital which is box 42. Theoretically, that should feed back into ACB for the ETF. As for double taxation, I think it would work the other way. The return of capital reduces the ACB and so using the original ACB would mean less taxes. Let's roll the clock forward many years and assume that you never sell the ETF and continue to receive return of capital. Eventually, you are going to have taxable capital gains even without selling. Where is the associated tax slip for this if the broker bookkeeping is not up to par?
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will888 wrote: The T3 is supposed to include return of capital which is box 42. Theoretically, that should feed back into ACB for the ETF. As for double taxation, I think it would work the other way. The return of capital reduces the ACB and so using the original ACB would mean less taxes. Let's roll the clock forward many years and assume that you never sell the ETF and continue to receive return of capital. Eventually, you are going to have taxable capital gains even without selling. Where is the associated tax slip for this if the broker bookkeeping is not up to par?
You are 100% correct about the RoC. The T3 has return of capital, and it also includes the phantom distributions embedded as part of the capital gains content on the T3.

However they do not break out the phantom distribution separately. Those phantom distributions should do the opposite of the RoC and increase your cost base so you don't get double taxed on the capital gain when you sell later.
https://www.adjustedcostbase.ca/blog/ph ... cost-base/

Even with that though, the T3's which have the data about the RoC are generated after the T5008. If you had an ETF which distributed RoC in-year and then you sold it later that year, the T5008 has no way of accounting for it, because the data isn't available at the time the T5008 was issued. Never mind the phantom distributions which are not broken out separately at all. :(

I just double checked and the cost base for ZDB (the first one I looked at) was too low on my T5008 as it had phantom distributions. If I used the T5008 numbers as they were, I'd be over paying my taxes.

I primarily invest in ETFs and due to these complexities, I track it all myself. I really really wish the reporting requirements were better for this - these complexities are completely hidden and there is really no good reason for it.
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sckor wrote: You are 100% correct about the RoC. The T3 has return of capital, and it also includes the phantom distributions embedded as part of the capital gains content on the T3.

However they do not break out the phantom distribution separately. Those phantom distributions should do the opposite of the RoC and increase your cost base so you don't get double taxed on the capital gain when you sell later.
https://www.adjustedcostbase.ca/blog/ph ... cost-base/

Even with that though, the T3's which have the data about the RoC are generated after the T5008. If you had an ETF which distributed RoC in-year and then you sold it later that year, the T5008 has no way of accounting for it, because the data isn't available at the time the T5008 was issued. Never mind the phantom distributions which are not broken out separately at all. :(

I just double checked and the cost base for ZDB (the first one I looked at) was too low on my T5008 as it had phantom distributions. If I used the T5008 numbers as they were, I'd be over paying my taxes.

I primarily invest in ETFs and due to these complexities, I track it all myself. I really really wish the reporting requirements were better for this - these complexities are completely hidden and there is really no good reason for it.
You might be right. I have only started holding ETFs in the cash account. I have lots of experience with stocks and mutual funds. The ACB was tracked perfectly by the bank event after reinvestments. I will have to pay attention to this and see how they track or do not track return of capital and reinvested distributions for ETFS. The big difference between mutual funds and ETFs is that reinvestments in mutual funds result in extra units being purchased at the market price when distributions are made whereas reinvestments in ETFs do not result in more units being added. I just assumed that if they track mutual funds and stocks perfectly, why not ETFs. Anyway, this could create a tracking nightmare for the investor and the CRA. Submitting numbers different than shown on a T5008 can trigger alarm bells.
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will888 wrote: You might be right. I have only started holding ETFs in the cash account. I have lots of experience with stocks and mutual funds. The ACB was tracked perfectly by the bank event after reinvestments. I will have to pay attention to this and see how they track or do not track return of capital and reinvested distributions for ETFS. The big difference between mutual funds and ETFs is that reinvestments in mutual funds result in extra units being purchased at the market price when distributions are made whereas reinvestments in ETFs do not result in more units being added. I just assumed that if they track mutual funds and stocks perfectly, why not ETFs. Anyway, this could create a tracking nightmare for the investor and the CRA. Submitting numbers different than shown on a T5008 can trigger alarm bells.
I would not worry about the numbers differing on T5008 vs what you report triggering any alarm bells with the CRA. Taxpayer is responsible for entering the correct information, and they are fully aware that the T5008's are troublesome as far as having the correct cost-base is concerned.

One other thing I wanted to mention is that finding the amount for the reinvested distributions can also be painful as getting it varies depending upon the ETF provider. Some make it easy to find, others less so.

FWIW, there is a central clearing house that has all of this data - its just tedious to use.
https://services.cds.ca/applications/ta ... ry=T3-2020
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sckor wrote: I would not worry about the numbers differing on T5008 vs what you report triggering any alarm bells with the CRA. Taxpayer is responsible for entering the correct information, and they are fully aware that the T5008's are troublesome as far as having the correct cost-base is concerned.

One other thing I wanted to mention is that finding the amount for the reinvested distributions can also be painful as getting it varies depending upon the ETF provider. Some make it easy to find, others less so.

FWIW, there is a central clearing house that has all of this data - its just tedious to use.
https://services.cds.ca/applications/ta ... ry=T3-2020
Crap! How does this site work? Do you search by cusip?
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will888 wrote: Crap! How does this site work? Do you search by cusip?
Cusip or by name. I usually do it by name, since I don't generally have the cusip handy. Yeah, its really crap.
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I did a stupid move of journal some TD share over to my US account then weeks after I have them journal the same number of shares backed to my Canadian account...this caused my ACB changed to lower (as vs previous ACB), it seemed like I am 'gaining' because my new ACB is lower than before but in fact that I have gained nothing. I think I must claim this back now in order to offset my future TD share sell profits with the new lower of ACB.
Anyone know where I should report this (new ACB - old ACB)*shares on SCH 3 ? can this goes to expenses column ?

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