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Tankless Hot Water System

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[OP]
Newbie
Feb 7, 2012
42 posts
1 upvote
RIDGEWAY

Tankless Hot Water System

I'm in the process of building a new home and looking at the Navian 210 series with connector kit - anyone have any feedback on this product? It's about $2700
17 replies
Member
Nov 9, 2009
250 posts
75 upvotes
Toronto
I have a Navien Combi boiler, which replaced a 40 yr old boiler and my water heater tank ( dec 2015). You are going to waste money on water, but save money on gas. It takes longer to get hot water at the tap when you first turn it on, but you then have endless hot water. My gas bill has dropped dramatically as I'm not heating a tank full of water all day long.
Deal Addict
May 23, 2009
2836 posts
1308 upvotes
Mississauga
I had one back in 2010 at my old place. IIRC, it was the Navien NR-210A (with buffer tank).

It was not a plesant experience and almost made me write off tankless. Cold water sandwich, low flow pressure etc. Even after I sold the place I sometimes received service call notifications as my phone number was still tied to the service account. I have a Rinnai unit now and I'm much happier. They might now be more advanced and reliability might have improved but I need serious convincing to get one again.
Newbie
May 10, 2010
97 posts
41 upvotes
Brampton
Good Plan. I had NPE-240A installed in ~2012. Still going good. If there is a hot water usage pattern, it does know to be active for those usage routines. However, usage outside of the pattern will require some water loss to have the heat started. We love this. We do not have to worry about kids using up all the water in the tank. More importantly, no more rental.

Gecko169 wrote: I'm in the process of building a new home and looking at the Navian 210 series with connector kit - anyone have any feedback on this product? It's about $2700
Sr. Member
Mar 19, 2013
696 posts
209 upvotes
Prince Albert, Sask.
I have a Navien NR-210. 5 years old. We really like it, no problems. The only maintenance I do is flush the unit every 16 months with vinegar.
Deal Guru
Dec 10, 2004
12316 posts
1867 upvotes
Kanata
Have the Navien 180 and it's been great. Greatly reduced the gas consumption and haven't seen an increase in water. Love having endless hot water, previous hot water tank was horrible (bradford white). Less than 5 years old, flushed every 18 months, and it couldn't deliver more than a single shower before the water wouldn't be hot anymore.
Deal Fanatic
Apr 20, 2011
7747 posts
2706 upvotes
ON
dakdar wrote: I have a Navien Combi boiler, which replaced a 40 yr old boiler and my water heater tank ( dec 2015). You are going to waste money on water, but save money on gas. It takes longer to get hot water at the tap when you first turn it on, but you then have endless hot water. My gas bill has dropped dramatically as I'm not heating a tank full of water all day long.
You saved money by increasing efficiency of your boiler, not because of standby heating a tank (especially in winter when that 'waste' is heating your home).
My summer gas bills are like $5 for hot water.

If you want to compare the two, it should be a brand new tank to a tankless of equivalent burning efficiency, not a 40yr old boiler. I suspect you'll find the difference isn't even noticeable.
The only real difference is not running out of hot water in the end.
Jr. Member
Aug 19, 2007
189 posts
96 upvotes
Toronto
dakdar wrote: I have a Navien Combi boiler, which replaced a 40 yr old boiler and my water heater tank ( dec 2015). You are going to waste money on water, but save money on gas. It takes longer to get hot water at the tap when you first turn it on, but you then have endless hot water. My gas bill has dropped dramatically as I'm not heating a tank full of water all day long.
Looking at a Navian combi as well. Dakdar, how many bathrooms do you have? I'm getting recommended the combi to run 1500sq ft of radiant floor, and domestic water for 4 bathrooms, dishwasher, laundry, etc... wondering if it will be enough. Mind you we will not be running 4 showers and doing laundry and dishes at the same time.
Member
Nov 9, 2009
250 posts
75 upvotes
Toronto
I have one bathroom in a 900 sq ft bungalow. I have radiators. The way the combi systems work, is either the hot water is running or the heat is on, both dont run at the same time. so keep that in mind. I can run hot water at two taps and have no problem maintaining hot water
Deal Addict
Jan 1, 2007
1152 posts
171 upvotes
Petro99 wrote: Looking at a Navian combi as well. Dakdar, how many bathrooms do you have? I'm getting recommended the combi to run 1500sq ft of radiant floor, and domestic water for 4 bathrooms, dishwasher, laundry, etc... wondering if it will be enough. Mind you we will not be running 4 showers and doing laundry and dishes at the same time.
What did you end up deciding on Petro99? You may need to also consider an indirect hot water tank as a buffer for the 4 bathrooms. I just can't imagine you will get enough hot water for the radiant floor and even 2 of the showers running in the winter.
Deal Addict
Jan 4, 2007
1345 posts
14 upvotes
That's probably not big enough without a storage tank. When they quoted you the system did they analyze your hot water use?
Petro99 wrote: Looking at a Navian combi as well. Dakdar, how many bathrooms do you have? I'm getting recommended the combi to run 1500sq ft of radiant floor, and domestic water for 4 bathrooms, dishwasher, laundry, etc... wondering if it will be enough. Mind you we will not be running 4 showers and doing laundry and dishes at the same time.
Jr. Member
Aug 19, 2007
189 posts
96 upvotes
Toronto
engmsf wrote: What did you end up deciding on Petro99? You may need to also consider an indirect hot water tank as a buffer for the 4 bathrooms. I just can't imagine you will get enough hot water for the radiant floor and even 2 of the showers running in the winter.
Thanks for the follow up guys. Coincidentally I met with my plumber at the house yesterday and we're still reviewing options. In short, I don't think the Navian Combi is going to cut it for 4 showers in the House, 3800sq ft and 5 people, radiant floors, and domestic hot water. I really wish this was a little simpler as my head is spinning with all the options...

My plumber is recommending to go down the road of a Hot Water Tank, add a boiler for the heated floors (can also add heated driveway, and he even mentioned heating the pool down the road). He's also recommending an air handler in place of a furnace to heat the house through water in place of gas. Lastly, he mentioned a recirc pump (I think??) on a timer that would cylcle the water through the system periodically to ensure hot water on demand.

Soooo, like I said all this is confusing. He does seem to know what he's talking about but I'd love a second/third opinion. I'm really debating just simplifying for myself and getting a 60Gallon tank, boiler, regular furnace and AC and moving on.

thanks guys...
Deal Addict
Jan 1, 2007
1152 posts
171 upvotes
Petro99 wrote: Thanks for the follow up guys. Coincidentally I met with my plumber at the house yesterday and we're still reviewing options. In short, I don't think the Navian Combi is going to cut it for 4 showers in the House, 3800sq ft and 5 people, radiant floors, and domestic hot water. I really wish this was a little simpler as my head is spinning with all the options...

My plumber is recommending to go down the road of a Hot Water Tank, add a boiler for the heated floors (can also add heated driveway, and he even mentioned heating the pool down the road). He's also recommending an air handler in place of a furnace to heat the house through water in place of gas. Lastly, he mentioned a recirc pump (I think??) on a timer that would cylcle the water through the system periodically to ensure hot water on demand.

Soooo, like I said all this is confusing. He does seem to know what he's talking about but I'd love a second/third opinion. I'm really debating just simplifying for myself and getting a 60Gallon tank, boiler, regular furnace and AC and moving on.

thanks guys...
Your plumbers recommendation keeps you to ONE natural gas device and that is the boiler. I will assume he is referring to an indirect hot water tank, as you mention recirculation pump. These do not need to be on a timer, and can be temperature dependent. If the indirect hot water tank is low on temp, the boiler fires up and the recirc pump runs. A second pump will be needed for the heated floors. A third pump will be needed to circulate hot water through the air handler to heat the home. Then there is the main pump to circulate through the boiler itself. So that is the beauty of having a hydronic system, you have separate systems pulling off hot water from the main circulation loop.

Your simplification idea would result in THREE natural gas consumers, and they all need inlet and exhaust. The 60G hot water tank, the boiler, and the furnace. There are pros and cons to each. In the plumber's recommendation, if the boiler goes, you are completely toast. In the latter, it will cost more to install three separate units, but if one fails, it will not impact your life as much.
Sr. Member
Feb 17, 2012
647 posts
127 upvotes
Toronto
^^^^ he's right but in the long run just call someone quickly and they can fix it. I can't see you without hot water or heat for very long anyways. Maybe 2 days?

Keep in mind a plumber will always recommend more work for him. Personally I think radiant flooring is such a waste of money unless you have it. If you want it and have the money then go for it. If you're on the fence then stick to the main areas like hallway, laundry room and washroom. Or you can just lay down those heated flooring electrical mats that roll out like a carpet. They are low voltage and can be turned on via a light switch from the stairs above. You can tile over them no problem or put down any flooring. Even hardwood
Jr. Member
Aug 19, 2007
189 posts
96 upvotes
Toronto
Frank2029 wrote: ^^^^ he's right but in the long run just call someone quickly and they can fix it. I can't see you without hot water or heat for very long anyways. Maybe 2 days?

Keep in mind a plumber will always recommend more work for him. Personally I think radiant flooring is such a waste of money unless you have it. If you want it and have the money then go for it. If you're on the fence then stick to the main areas like hallway, laundry room and washroom. Or you can just lay down those heated flooring electrical mats that roll out like a carpet. They are low voltage and can be turned on via a light switch from the stairs above. You can tile over them no problem or put down any flooring. Even hardwood
Thanks again guys. The house is an older 60's backsplit so the back of the house where the kitchen/main living space is all slab on grade. No ducts so we went with radiant as a supplementary system. Ducts run across the top and on second floor. So it's good to hear his suggestion is plausible, and maybe recommended? Wouldn't be very much fun if the Boiler went down but I think in the city it could be quickly repaired in a day or two. What about heating the pool from the boiler in the house? He mentioned running some 2" lines out to the pool with a pump and that it would be much more efficient then a pool heater? I think we're looking at a 200-250BTU unit, any recommendations? He's worked with a Canadian manufacturer in the east coast - Northern something???
Deal Addict
Jan 1, 2007
1152 posts
171 upvotes
Petro99 wrote: Thanks again guys. The house is an older 60's backsplit so the back of the house where the kitchen/main living space is all slab on grade. No ducts so we went with radiant as a supplementary system. Ducts run across the top and on second floor. So it's good to hear his suggestion is plausible, and maybe recommended? Wouldn't be very much fun if the Boiler went down but I think in the city it could be quickly repaired in a day or two. What about heating the pool from the boiler in the house? He mentioned running some 2" lines out to the pool with a pump and that it would be much more efficient then a pool heater? I think we're looking at a 200-250BTU unit, any recommendations? He's worked with a Canadian manufacturer in the east coast - Northern something???
I would recommend the boiler setup as it simpler than the alternative. Since you live in the city, there are many companies that can service it. Your plumber is probably talking about NTI boilers from Saint John New Brunswick. I would probably avoid them and go with Navien myself. Heating up a pool with the boiler (natural gas) should be more efficient than using an electric pool heater. The main issue I have with radiant is potential for leaks – floor/wall damage and molding.

So your setup will look like this:
Pump #1 for main circulation loop through the boiler
Pump #2 for coils through air handler for the front of the house
Pump #3 for circulation through the indirect hot water tank (showers, sinks – just size this tank properly)
Pump #4 for the radiant floors at the back of the house
Pump #5 for the swimming pool heating

Pumps #2 through #5 is just tapping into the main loop when it needs to consume hot water. You just need to properly size the boiler. You want a boiler and not the combi type.

I highly recommend you search up Homestars.com for reputable companies and getting at least half a dozen quotes. Get a team of plumbers and not just one guy doing the job. Learn from each quote and build on your knowledge for the next quote. This is a large project and the prices can vary greatly.

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