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TD now charging full commissions ($40) for Norbert's Gambit

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  • Dec 7th, 2015 2:48 pm
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[OP]
Deal Addict
Jan 9, 2010
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TD now charging full commissions ($40) for Norbert's Gambit

I just called TD this morning to try to do a gambit using my TFSA. Because they changed their online system recently you can no longer do it online yourself. I did it twice after they changed the system and they've always charged me the online commission because they acknowledge that it's a functionality that they removed.

Anyways so I try to do the same thing this morning and they told me that a full commission will be charged. I called another agent and then spoke to their supervisor and was told the same thing. I was absolutely livid. They were unwilling to budge. The supervisor even acknowledged that it's a Norbert's gambit and that if I was able to do it online myself or through an agent with the online commission in the past then it's a benefit that I shouldn't have received. Ludicrous. More like a cash grab.

Has anyone gotten a similar experience recently?
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May 18, 2015
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moofur wrote: I just called TD this morning to try to do a gambit using my TFSA. Because they changed their online system recently you can no longer do it online yourself. I did it twice after they changed the system and they've always charged me the online commission because they acknowledge that it's a functionality that they removed.

Anyways so I try to do the same thing this morning and they told me that a full commission will be charged. I called another agent and then spoke to their supervisor and was told the same thing. I was absolutely livid. They were unwilling to budge. The supervisor even acknowledged that it's a Norbert's gambit and that if I was able to do it online myself or through an agent with the online commission in the past then it's a benefit that I shouldn't have received. Ludicrous. More like a cash grab.

Has anyone gotten a similar experience recently?
yea same thing happened to me. I just called back and spoke to a different supervisor at a different time and they allowed it
[OP]
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Jan 9, 2010
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Before they had separate CAD and USD TFSAs they had a USD wash service where you can enroll and your US trades will wash into what was essentially a US money market fund and you had the ability to execute the Norbert's gambit directly online.

After they changed the system and separated the USD and TFSA portions of your TFSA they removed the ability to execute Norbert's Gambit yourself online since you can no longer sell interlisted stock on different stock exchanges.
[OP]
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Jan 9, 2010
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Anonymouse wrote: I bought DLR and the next day called them to ask that it be journaled over to DLR.U. He asked me if I was doing Norbert's gambit, I said yes. He arranged to sell the DLR.U over the phone instantly and told me not to wait a day next time. Charge was US$9.99 for the sale.

This was two weeks ago.
Tbh I think it's still a hit or miss and depends on who you get. However, it's still terrible that this is the case when you could have done it yourself before at the online commission rate.
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Nov 28, 2007
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Whitehorse, YT
Tell TDDI that at BMOIL the move can be done as quickly as you can enter the key stokes and get filled for $9.95 per trade. That's $60 worth switching for.
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Feb 11, 2009
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moofur wrote: Before they had separate CAD and USD TFSAs they had a USD wash service where you can enroll and your US trades will wash into what was essentially a US money market fund and you had the ability to execute the Norbert's gambit directly online.

After they changed the system and separated the USD and TFSA portions of your TFSA they removed the ability to execute Norbert's Gambit yourself online since you can no longer sell interlisted stock on different stock exchanges.
Wash trades aren't the same as Norberts Gambitt...with the wash, you had to do the initial conversion...As far as I can remember, you were not able to ever do this online...You always had to call in to "Journal" the trade which would be done after settlement...and to do it instantly you'd have to pay the over the phone commission (unless you get a rep willing to waive it, which I would always try till I did). Both options are still the case, and they don't charge to journal still.
[OP]
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Jan 9, 2010
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deal_with_singh wrote: Wash trades aren't the same as Norberts Gambitt...with the wash, you had to do the initial conversion...As far as I can remember, you were not able to ever do this online...You always had to call in to "Journal" the trade which would be done after settlement...and to do it instantly you'd have to pay the over the phone commission (unless you get a rep willing to waive it, which I would always try till I did). Both options are still the case, and they don't charge to journal still.
It did effectively allow you to execute the trade by selling interlisted securities directly without calling in. I've done it multiple times before and so did many others on this forum. You were able to place the trade for the sale directly on the US stock exchange. There was a discussion on RFD when they made the change to TD Direct Investing that we were losing the ability to do it ourselves:

holding-usd-td-webbroker-changeover-hap ... a-1604665/

I haven't tried to ask them to journal it over so I can't say, but I wouldn't be surprised if they still tried to charge you full commissions for it.
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Mar 24, 2008
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OP, why don't you move your accounts over to a more modern brokerage. You don't have to put up with TD DI's *****ness.
[OP]
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ksgill wrote: OP, why don't you move your accounts over to a more modern brokerage. You don't have to put up with TD DI's *****ness.
Because I don't really execute that many trades in a year to make it worth it. Even with the gambit, it's "just" an extra $20-25 since I can still do the other two gambit trades (the initial buy and the subsequent sell) online.

On top of that I have a large balance in e-series at the current moment.
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ksgill wrote: OP, why don't you move your accounts over to a more modern brokerage. You don't have to put up with TD DI's *****ness.
It is very disruptive to move our accounts ... and, eventually, all the banks seem to be about the same. Don't burn your bridge.

Better strategy is to advise a TDDI csr that you would be better off moving that amount of money out of their account to perform the gambit. That might bring a concession.

I did this when TDDI sent a letter saying they would be charging $2 for mailing statements and trade confirmations. I sent an email saying then I would transition my account over time to another bank that did not need to charge for mailing. The phone rang shortly after. I'm now a financial customer "grandfather".
[OP]
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How much is considered a large enough account that they would actually start treating you better? I thought about threatening them to leave but didn't want to look like an idiot if they wouldn't consider me to have at least a larger sum of assets...
[OP]
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Jan 9, 2010
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Hm... interesting. I'm definitely above $100K by a good margin but no dice this time around. Although the guy ended up processing the trade at $9.99 and was polite he made it clear that this was a one time thing and that going forward I will be charged the full commission since this "requires them to do a good amount of work on their end." He even put me on hold for around 10 minutes while he reviewed the tapes from my previous call since I told him that I was told the last time I did it that the online commission would always apply since this is not something that I could do online.
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Jan 6, 2011
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I bought DLR.U >$100k USD this morning at 9.99 commission.
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Dec 28, 2007
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I understand there are a few options to avoid the phone commission:
1. In a short-enabled margin account, you can first sell an interlisted stock on the US side, then buy on the CDN side. Call after settlement to journal the shares from CDN to US.
2. Buy DLR, wait 3 days for settlement. Call to journal the shares, wait for journalling. Sell through webbroker.
3. If you already own some interlisted shares, call to have them journaled to the US account. Sell these shares in the US account and repurchase in the CDN account. This would work best in registered (RSP/TFSA) accounts to avoid issues with capital gains/losses.
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JUnit wrote: I understand there are a few options to avoid the phone commission:
1. In a short-enabled margin account, you can first sell an interlisted stock on the US side, then buy on the CDN side. Call after settlement to journal the shares from CDN to US.
2. Buy DLR, wait 3 days for settlement. Call to journal the shares, wait for journalling. Sell through webbroker.
3. If you already own some interlisted shares, call to have them journaled to the US account. Sell these shares in the US account and repurchase in the CDN account. This would work best in registered (RSP/TFSA) accounts to avoid issues with capital gains/losses.
Sorry for bumping this thread, but can someone list the steps by steps for N.G. with TDDI? looking forward to convert large $30K+ USD to CAD
I am TDW P.A. account, has margin accounts

I assume the quickest is option 1?
all 3 options above require 3 day settlement? i.e. USD rate could change in those 3 days?

I'm gonna read up more on this as well
http://www.finiki.org/wiki/Norbert's_Gambit

http://savvybuck.com/2014/12/17/using-n ... aterhouse/
^^ This has steps by steps, is it still valid? I'll just do the reverse? I'm slightly unsure what Step 2 means, I call TDW and say what exactly? please journal my DLR.U to DLR?
Step 1: Buy DLR in your Canadian trading account
DLR TD Waterhouse
A. I need over $20,000 US

B. Thus, on Dec. 15, I bought 2100 shares of DLR at $11.59 per share costing a total of $24,339 CAD + ($9.99 trading commission)

Step 2: Call TD Waterhouse to journal your shares over as DLR.U
This should take several days to “settle”, meaning for them to approve, go through with the transaction, and actually have it appear in your account. From the above picture, I made the transaction on the 15th and it is going to be settled on the 18th.


Step 3: Sell DLR.U in your US trading account
DLRU TD Waterhouse
A. I sold all 2100 shares of DLR.U at an asking price of $9.94 per share costing a total of $20,874 USD – ($9.99 trading comission)
*Note: I was trading on “margin” (aka loan) because in theory, it hasn’t settled yet. You have to have a margin account to be able to do this. Otherwise, you would have to wait until it settles, and then make the sale.
Thanks in advance
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I did option 2) not long ago. If you call early in the day to journal, shares will be available by noon so you can sell. The only problem is CAD/USD could fluctuate a bit during 3 days, so it could be to your advantage/disadvantage. Do you have short selling accounts? I do but haven't tried option 1) and I don't think you need 3 days. Also, with RESP which still allows only CAD account, you could buy and sell inter-listed on the same day and get your conversion without calling to journal. RBC is like that, no need to call and do it on the same day. I asked TDW before and they said they will be allowing that in the future, but didn't know when
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mkl38s wrote: I did option 2) not long ago. If you call early in the day to journal, shares will be available by noon so you can sell. The only problem is CAD/USD could fluctuate a bit during 3 days, so it could be to your advantage/disadvantage. Do you have short selling accounts? I do but haven't tried option 1) and I don't think you need 3 days. Also, with RESP which still allows only CAD account, you could buy and sell inter-listed on the same day and get your conversion without calling to journal. RBC is like that, no need to call and do it on the same day. I asked TDW before and they said they will be allowing that in the future, but didn't know when
I'll do this in my CAD/USD Margin accounts (can short-sell)

so you bought DLR in the morning, call TDW to journal to DLR.U and DLR.U will show up same-day to sell already? doesn't have to wait 3 days for DLR.U to show up & sell?
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jerryhung wrote: I'll do this in my CAD/USD Margin accounts (can short-sell)

so you bought DLR in the morning, call TDW to journal to DLR.U and DLR.U will show up same-day to sell already? doesn't have to wait 3 days for DLR.U to show up & sell?
No, to journal, it needs to be settled so you have to wait 3 days. if you short sell one account and long on an other account then they will cancel out, so you can call later on to journal & cancel out whenever you like. That's my assumption only though, haven't done it yet. you can talk to them to confirm about the short selling before doing it
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just called TDW President line
she's fully aware of N.G. but she said they'll charge full agent fee ($35 + 0.06 per share) to journal & short sell right after you purchase

e.g. if I buy 200 TD $50 USD, $10 commission (it can be any dual-listed stock or DLR/DLR.U)
call TDW to short sell TD.ca at Market (spot rate) or Limit, they'll charge $35 + $12 = $47 fee and no way around it.
I said others paid $10 and she said there's official document on this

not sure if I need to ask for a supervisor, but it's annoying... they still want to charge me for my President's account
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