Real Estate

Tenant problem

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[OP]
Newbie
Apr 30, 2009
21 posts
8 upvotes
Ajax
FrancisBacon: does homeowner surety have any legal benefit to LL in case tenant doesn’t pay rent or cause damages assuming LL still have to go through LTB.
Deal Fanatic
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Dec 11, 2005
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TO
Sorry to hear OP of your headaches with this tenant. Honestly in Ontario you are atthe tenant's mercy and literally have to bend over backwards to please them.

Like my buddy who says Welcome to Ontario, where LTB isfor the tenants and where Govt knows housing can be subsdized by the Out of Country/International investors.
"You can't soar with the eagles if you're hanging with the turkeys - Gary Kent
Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
3402 posts
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Montreal
zaino22 wrote: FrancisBacon: does homeowner surety have any legal benefit to LL in case tenant doesn’t pay rent or cause damages assuming LL still have to go through LTB.
The benefit of a surety, especially one that owns a home, is that you can be (almost) assured of getting paid.

Just add the surety to the case and execute the judgement against the surety.


An indirect benefit is that if a tenant knows his family or friend is responsible, he is less likely to leave without paying, and much less likely to purposefully trash the place.
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Dec 11, 2005
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TO
FrancisBacon wrote: The benefit of a surety, especially one that owns a home, is that you can be (almost) assured of getting paid.

Just add the surety to the case and execute the judgement against the surety.


An indirect benefit is that if a tenant knows his family or friend is responsible, he is less likely to leave without paying, and much less likely to purposefully trash the place.
Hi FrancisBacon Just so I understand, you are sayinng get the guarantor with a tenant (even if they're A+ credit etc) so like in the OP's case, Op/Landlord can go to the guarantor of Tenant for damages/unpaid rent?
"You can't soar with the eagles if you're hanging with the turkeys - Gary Kent
Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
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TorontoEh wrote: Hi FrancisBacon Just so I understand, you are sayinng get the guarantor with a tenant (even if they're A+ credit etc) so like in the OP's case, Op/Landlord can go to the guarantor of Tenant for damages/unpaid rent?
If a tenant has A+ credit he'll probably be annoyed and refuse to get a surety. So there's little point in asking.

For tenants with "some credit issues", or good credit but unstable jobs, that's when it's worth it to get a surety.

Be sure to follow whatever rules Ontario imposes. They are almost certainly very important and non obvious (definitely so in Quebec).


If the forms are properly filled out, then yes, the surety is on the hook for rent, property damage, and anything else.


In real life, when a debtor is reminded that a surety signed, he'll usually pay up. If no payment is made, a surety that owns a house will usually pay up before the case needs to be filed in court.

People who own homes don't usually want their credit file to reflect a court judgment, and are even more averse to having a bailiff seize their furniture. Especially if they have a spouse.
[OP]
Newbie
Apr 30, 2009
21 posts
8 upvotes
Ajax
FrancisBacon:
Love this home surety solution, thank you. Is there form that home surety party needs to fill out for process to be completed ? Please elaborate how-to do it can benefit all.
Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
3402 posts
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Montreal
zaino22 wrote: FrancisBacon:
Love this home surety solution, thank you. Is there form that home surety party needs to fill out for process to be completed ? Please elaborate how-to do it can benefit all.
Process and exact form should be different for each province. Ideally invest money for a paralegal to draft something for you. Money well spent.

But basically looks like this

Surety provides filled/signed form (which you drafted) and his own credit check form.

You check that credit is ok and that he actually owns the house.

Annual reminders if required by provincial law.


Everyone wins.
Sr. Member
Dec 3, 2019
524 posts
473 upvotes
Ontario
In Ontario you have to use a standard contract approved by the Landlord Tenant Board (LTB) for the lease

You can either put the "co-signor" on the lease as if they are living there or;
create a separate contract in addition to the lease where the "guarantor" guarantees payments.
(we don't use the word surety here)



I actually get "co-signors" and "guarantors" for my tenants all the time but not sure how it would play out in court.

-I have a feeling that LTB would not enforce payment on someone that was not an actual Tenant.

-Enforcement might have to be done through small claims court.
Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
3402 posts
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Montreal
buysellbuy wrote: In Ontario you have to use a standard contract approved by the Landlord Tenant Board (LTB) for the lease

You can either put the "co-signor" on the lease as if they are living there or;
create a separate contract in addition to the lease where the "guarantor" guarantees payments.
(we don't use the word surety here)



I actually get "co-signors" and "guarantors" for my tenants all the time but not sure how it would play out in court.

-I have a feeling that LTB would not enforce payment on someone that was not an actual Tenant.

-Enforcement might have to be done through small claims court.

In Quebec there is also a mandatory lease form. But for a surety you can use your own.

Be very careful about the difference between a co-signor (co-tenant?) And a surety (guarantor). In almost all cases you do NOT want a co-anything (legal headache). You want a surety/guarantor (much better).

Not sure about LTB, but going to small claims shouldn't be hard. Someone with a house can't run and can't hide (not easily).
Sr. Member
Dec 3, 2019
524 posts
473 upvotes
Ontario
What are your views on "co-signors" being bad?

In my view the benefit is that a judgement could be made against the "co-signor" when I go through LTB for an eviction.
I don't think LTB would issue a judgement against a "guarantor" outside the standard lease.



FrancisBacon wrote: In Quebec there is also a mandatory lease form. But for a surety you can use your own.

Be very careful about the difference between a co-signor (co-tenant?) And a surety (guarantor). In almost all cases you do NOT want a co-anything (legal headache). You want a surety/guarantor (much better).

Not sure about LTB, but going to small claims shouldn't be hard. Someone with a house can't run and can't hide (not easily).
Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
3402 posts
3751 upvotes
Montreal
buysellbuy wrote: What are your views on "co-signors" being bad?

In my view the benefit is that a judgement could be made against the "co-signor" when I go through LTB for an eviction.
I don't think LTB would issue a judgement against a "guarantor" outside the standard lease.
I can't speak to LTB process. But even if true, I still think it's better to sue to evict one person (LTB), then sue to recover damages from the other (SCC).

If both are on the lease, you may have the issue that #2 says "I don't want to be on the lease anymore / I'm moving out". Then what?

A surety is much harder, and maybe impossible, to get out of (in Quebec anyway).
[OP]
Newbie
Apr 30, 2009
21 posts
8 upvotes
Ajax
FrancisBacon: I will check it out if it’s possible in Ontario.
For those who are following this topic, there is a good news. Morning of the tenancy end date, my tenants asked us to move our vehicles for moving truck and that’s how I got confirmation they are leaving. Two days before when we wanted to confirm when to get keys they said they are not leaving. That’s how cruel and out of this world they’re.

Tenants gave me option to clean up myself and have keys returned before they leave OR they’ll cleanup next day and then return keys then and silly me I took the bait and asked them to cleanup. It’s been couple of days and keys have not returned and there are quite a bit stuff/garbage bags (not sure if they have garbage in bags or just their stuff) left behind with no confirmation on when they’d return with keys and pick their stuff/clean up. When asked if they can come today, they said we are busy cannot come with no date/time confirmation when can they make it. My assumption is they will come just don’t want to give us time frame.

I will wait for 3 more days and if they don’t come or communicate when they will come then I will change locks and throw their stuff out or sell (if I legally can).

Why can’t this be done in civil way and not sure why people turn so bitter for something that would look tiny speck in their entire existence in this world. Had they asked me to keep stuff for a week and then they will pick up/cleanup, I won’t mind but I guess that’s the way they are getting back to me.

Around 10K of financial losses and mental torture we are moving on but they don’t know how to move on.
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Nov 2, 2020
1438 posts
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zaino22 wrote: FrancisBacon: I will check it out if it’s possible in Ontario.
For those who are following this topic, there is a good news. Morning of the tenancy end date, my tenants asked us to move our vehicles for moving truck and that’s how I got confirmation they are leaving. Two days before when we wanted to confirm when to get keys they said they are not leaving. That’s how cruel and out of this world they’re.

Tenants gave me option to clean up myself and have keys returned before they leave OR they’ll cleanup next day and then return keys then and silly me I took the bait and asked them to cleanup. It’s been couple of days and keys have not returned and there are quite a bit stuff/garbage bags (not sure if they have garbage in bags or just their stuff) left behind with no confirmation on when they’d return with keys and pick their stuff/clean up. When asked if they can come today, they said we are busy cannot come with no date/time confirmation when can they make it. My assumption is they will come just don’t want to give us time frame.

I will wait for 3 more days and if they don’t come or communicate when they will come then I will change locks and throw their stuff out or sell (if I legally can).

Why can’t this be done in civil way and not sure why people turn so bitter for something that would look tiny speck in their entire existence in this world. Had they asked me to keep stuff for a week and then they will pick up/cleanup, I won’t mind but I guess that’s the way they are getting back to me.

Around 10K of financial losses and mental torture we are moving on but they don’t know how to move on.
Honestly I would have gotten it cleaned and gotten the keys right away. You know you had a bad experience with them and they are probably amused by all of this. They may not come back. You must move forward now and although you are at a loss financially just know some people are even more at a loss right now and 10k in the grand scheme of things won't be so bad down the road. Right now there are some people who are thousands and thousands of dollars in the hole from missing rent and not able to get a hearing on time as everything is delayed.
[OP]
Newbie
Apr 30, 2009
21 posts
8 upvotes
Ajax
I have another investment property that I am thinking to hire property management for. Does anyone think using property management Company helps or is it worth it?
Deal Guru
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Mar 23, 2008
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Edmonton
zaino22 wrote: I have another investment property that I am thinking to hire property management for. Does anyone think using property management Company helps or is it worth it?
Not meaning to be TOO much of an ass, but since you seem to have issues taking the landlord/tenant too personally, it’s probably a good idea for you to retain a property management company if you insist on going through this again.

C
Newbie
Dec 3, 2018
11 posts
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GTA
zaino22 wrote: I have another investment property that I am thinking to hire property management for. Does anyone think using property management Company helps or is it worth it?
The property management company is bound by the same laws you are, they couldn't do anything that you can't do yourself, the only benefit could be them going through the legal channels quickly if you yourself are not quick or knowledgable enough to do it in a timely manner.

With respect to your current tenants, I strongly encourage you to take them to small claims court, even if you don't expect the get any money back. It costs a couple hundred dollars to sue them, and it will put a mark on their names that will alert others who consider renting to them in the future. As landlords we should be doing everything in our power to hold such people accountable - currently the only tool we have is to sue.
Flat fee and cashback real estate agent in the GTA.

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