Automotive

Tesla - criticisms and debates

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Deal Addict
Jul 28, 2007
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ohnabatko wrote: Politely disagree - diamond ring is very bad example of a luxury good that is virtually indestructible and has very little "service component"

Tesla is a depreciating asset with wear and tear, and subject to breakages - thus serviceability is a buying factor.
Certified 3rd party shops by Tesla is a great point, but I did not see this mentioned.
Are we talking about the purchase (sales center) or maintenance (service center). Clearly they can't exist adequately without a network of service centers. But what does a sales center have to do with the bolded option above?

I'd agree they need some cars here and there for people to sit in and take for test drives. But maybe that can be done with an independent network of individual sales people that drive around? There are other alternatives to the traditional model.
Sr. Member
Aug 7, 2017
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Another Tesla-killer turns victim - Audi e-tron can't quite match the promises. Now we know why they were so quiet on range for so long - https://jalopnik.com/at-204-miles-the-2 ... 1833836539.

But wait! It can charge even faster than a Tesla on a new dedicated network! Yep, except none of the locations are live - https://www.electrify-canada.ca/locate-charger. Where would you even go in this thing? City to city trips in winter would be a pain in the ass if not downright scary.

Seems Tesla is further ahead than so many people realize, or Audi just isn't really trying, maybe even just on a mission to prove to ICErs that BEVs aren't worth it?
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Aug 19, 2018
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ohnabatko wrote:
These are the dangers online selling: for big-ticket items and luxury products, you need physical presence in markets - as part of the price you making people pay, is to recover cost of maintaining such infrastructure.
The bigger the dollar value per item, the more pure online-model does not work.
I think this discussion has merit but I'm not sure I understand your point correctly. When you said "you need physical presence in markets - as part of the price you making people pay, is to recover cost of maintaining such infrastructure." the component doesn't seem to cover itself.

Part of the price you make people pay to recover the cost of infrastructure, I get that, but why is that part "necessary"? If they can maintain the car without a service center. Like what my buddy did, they just drive to his work and replace a windshield for him at the parking lot... What other infrastructure are we talking about here? For major repair, perhaps you will need a service center, but those are usually few and far in between and not necessarily dedicated to Tesla anyway. Most manufacturers don't run a service center just for their cars in anything but major cities.

So, if I can get the same car, get the same service, except for less price online, what seems to be the drawback here? I mean. I know what I am getting anyway. And the problem will come upon delivery whether there is a dealer or not anyway. What is the problem? Are we talking about mindshare and marketing? Since Tesla doesn't do marketing anyway it doesn't seem like it is a problem, at least, for them.

Obviously, I would prefer a service center nearby, but I'm open to the concept that I can get a reduced price on a car with perhaps a longer wait on the maintenance window. What is the rationality against this model at the moment?
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Jan 19, 2007
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Cucumference wrote: ...If they can maintain the car without a service center. Like what my buddy did, they just drive to his work and replace a windshield for him at the parking lot... What other infrastructure are we talking about here? For major repair, perhaps you will need a service center, but those are usually few and far in between and not necessarily dedicated to Tesla anyway. Most manufacturers don't run a service center just for their cars in anything but major cities....
Ok - we are getting somewhere: how long (as time) and how far (as distance) are you prepared to drive for a service?
Assume we need human touch with physical contact.
What about if the car breaks and you need a loaner? What about during summer vs. winter?

To be clear: the announcement says no service center in whole Alberta dismissed and no staff left that to me included anybody who's mobile. Tat to me sounds terrible idea.
Gents - we are talking here a vehicles in $70K-$150K range competing with well-established brands built-out dealers and take on these functions.
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Nov 20, 2005
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ohnabatko wrote: To be clear: the announcement says no service center in whole Alberta dismissed and no staff left that to me included anybody who's mobile.
It wasn't a decision to cut cost, it was an HR issue with the department at the service centre. They still have mobile staff and as someone commented, they filled in those SC roles with new staff already.
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Jan 19, 2007
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WarrenC12 wrote: Are we talking about the purchase (sales center) or maintenance (service center). Clearly they can't exist adequately without a network of service centers. But what does a sales center have to do with the bolded option above?

I'd agree they need some cars here and there for people to sit in and take for test drives. But maybe that can be done with an independent network of individual sales people that drive around? There are other alternatives to the traditional model.
The announcement is service-center brother - don't shift the pre-sales process: people a gone. Tesla AB owners are happy

But you want to talk about dealership/sales here I can beat that crap as well.

Here's how it goes:
Stage 1: Tesla does not need to keep high inventory - that's the crux why they don't need supposedly show-rooms or dealers: you order (with a few options), magic happens, then you get the car. All good but very short-term as we all see now.
This is called demand-pull business and very characteristic of growth stage of new products (the vertical of the S-curve)

Stage 2: Very soon, once the market matures and all factories are build, Tesla would recognize that its operationally cheaper to "pre-make" cars as other automaters (due to steady production rate and parts, predictive labor and suppliers) distribute them on lots, and then have sales centers (dealership) push the sales directly to customers and manage all the stuff like customer selection, education, recalls, stuff. Then then dealers manage post-sale as well.
This is supply-push business.

Actually I can claim that I see the signs that Model S is in Stage 2 and there's a long-term value of physical presence even in the pre-sales process.
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Jul 28, 2007
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ohnabatko wrote: The announcement is service-center brother - don't shift the pre-sales process: people a gone. Tesla AB owners are happy
That was an issue of unprofessional conduct. It's been well explained, not sure where you are getting your news.

You're confusing a one time extreme event with Tesla's overall business model.
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Aug 19, 2018
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WarrenC12 wrote: That was an issue of unprofessional conduct. It's been well explained, not sure where you are getting your news.

You're confusing a one time extreme event with Tesla's overall business model.
Yeah, reading ohnabatko's comment made me think he mixed up the announcement.
Deal Guru
Sep 1, 2004
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ohnabatko wrote: Actually I can claim that I see the signs that Model S is in Stage 2 and there's a long-term value of physical presence even in the pre-sales process.
I think once the 40s+ year old die off, physical presence is not needed. Buying an EV should be as simple as buying a phone on Aliexpress.

One search on youtube will give you access of endless recommendation from brand ambassadors pimping their opinions and referral code. Along with forums, I usually end up knowing more about a car I want to buy than anybody in local dealership.

The only local presence needed is delivery, education and service. Yelling at someone on the phone and over email to have problems addressed doesn't work.
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Xtrema wrote: I think once the 40s+ year old die off, physical presence is not needed. Buying an EV should be as simple as buying a phone on Aliexpress.
I used to think this is ridiculous until I bought a car. The amount of hassle is overwhelming.

Aside from perhaps a test drive, which, honestly, doesn't actually tell you much about a car. Ideally, you need to rent it for a week or so too really figure out if it is the right fit. I think Tesla's model of "Buy it and return it for free within 7 days" has merit. I'm not saying Tesla is doing it right. I don't trust Tesla to operate this part correctly without hurdle (Show me the evidence they are doing it right first, then we will talk)

However, if this is done right, I think it is the way to go. I will gladly give up all the time wasted sitting in the dealership waiting for counters offer and upsells and inventory adjustment and whatever in exchange of not having to deal with everyone and always pay the same price everyone else gets.
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Cucumference wrote: However, if this is done right, I think it is the way to go. I will gladly give up all the time wasted sitting in the dealership waiting for counters offer and upsells and inventory adjustment and whatever in exchange of not having to deal with everyone and always pay the same price everyone else gets.
So much this. My god, what an awful experience buying new or used from a dealer.
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Apr 21, 2004
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Xtrema wrote: I think once the 40s+ year old die off, physical presence is not needed. Buying an EV should be as simple as buying a phone on Aliexpress.

One search on youtube will give you access of endless recommendation from brand ambassadors pimping their opinions and referral code. Along with forums, I usually end up knowing more about a car I want to buy than anybody in local dealership.

The only local presence needed is delivery, education and service. Yelling at someone on the phone and over email to have problems addressed doesn't work.
And you can tell ergonomics from reviews online? :)

Second biggest purchase after a house. Under 40's must be raking it big to not bother spending some time in the car and checking the ergonomics at the very least.
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Sep 1, 2004
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alanbrenton wrote: And you can tell ergonomics from reviews online? :)
Ok, you got me there. It's in a showroom that I figure out the E class may not be for me. Don't really like the seat.
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alanbrenton wrote: And you can tell ergonomics from reviews online? :)

Second biggest purchase after a house. Under 40's must be raking it big to not bother spending some time in the car and checking the ergonomics at the very least.
How is half an hour test drive going to tell much? Most problems don't pop up until you drive the car for a few days and actually use it like what it is intended for.

Maybe let's put it this way, would you rather test drive the car for a couple of hours, or take it home for a week as a test? Again, I'm not saying Tesla is doing this right. I don't trust them to not give me hassle when I return the car, but let's say, what if a car manufacturer out there let you do that. Which one would you pick?
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Apr 21, 2004
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And remember with Tesla, there is so many iterations for its parts with a production year, that you may want to make sure what you saw is what you are going to get.

rear seat height was lowered in the TM3 I believe after complaints of seating position awkwardness
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Jan 25, 2004
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WarrenC12 wrote: So much this. My god, what an awful experience buying new or used from a dealer.
It's Unreal. The amount ot phsycohological manipulation they attempt is exhausting.
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Nov 20, 2005
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Konowl wrote: It's Unreal. The amount ot phsycohological manipulation they attempt is exhausting.
Yeah when I went with my brother in law to get his truck, it took all morning and we were both exhausted and hungry by the end of it. Kept getting passed on to various people up the food chain trying to upsell something. Then you reach the final boss, the accountant, who want you to buy the undercoating, clear coat protection, longest financing rate possible, etc.
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pitabread wrote: Yeah when I went with my brother in law to get his truck, it took all morning and we were both exhausted and hungry by the end of it. Kept getting passed on to various people up the food chain trying to upsell something. Then you reach the final boss, the accountant, who want you to buy the undercoating, clear coat protection, longest financing rate possible, etc.
The feeling I get when I’m in their “house” is I’m a prey and they’re the predators. A whole team of dedicated sales professionals working together to screw you over with up selling. The general experience isn’t all that great.
TEAM CANADA!!!!!!!!!!!
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Apr 21, 2009
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WarrenC12 wrote: So much this. My god, what an awful experience buying new or used from a dealer.
Konowl wrote: It's Unreal. The amount ot phsycohological manipulation they attempt is exhausting.
pitabread wrote: Yeah when I went with my brother in law to get his truck, it took all morning and we were both exhausted and hungry by the end of it. Kept getting passed on to various people up the food chain trying to upsell something. Then you reach the final boss, the accountant, who want you to buy the undercoating, clear coat protection, longest financing rate possible, etc.
I’ve purchased a handful of vehicles recently, between myself, family members, close friends, I’d say maybe 6-7 over the past 4 years. I’ve gotten quite used to knowing exactly what to look for, what to ask for, discounts, etc (of course because of the amazing info and help here on RFD!)

But man, what a terrible experience it always is. My favourite must be when I was looking for the i3. The first person I spoke with at BMW when I was ready to order an i3, his exact line was “Nah you don’t want that car”. I’m thinking “I’m actually ready to order a car, and he’s trying to un-sell me on it”.

The Pacifica Hybrid was quite a lot of fun too. Early 2017, after CIAS where Chrysler had the Pacifica Hybrid on display, with pricing, including incentives, etc, I went to several dealers trying to get info about putting an order. I visited 3-4 at the time. Most were clueless. Some had no idea what the government rebate/incentive was at the time. Another straight up lied about the incentive. Painful experience to say the least, never mind the whole actual purchasing process afterwards, and dealing with service departments at many dealerships.

Honestly looking forward to logging into the website and ordering a Model 3 this summer if that’s the direction I go.
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Aug 19, 2018
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I am kinda glad so many people feel the same. Maybe Tesla will figure out a way to do it properly. Who knows?

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