Personal Finance

Thoughts on Bitcoin and other crypto now?

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  • Dec 6th, 2022 12:36 pm
[OP]
Deal Guru
Aug 14, 2007
12201 posts
3196 upvotes
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Thoughts on Bitcoin and other crypto now?

Through my business with people in other countries it was easiest to accept payment for the repair jobs and return shipping via bitcoin and in a couple months in payments I reached $1000 in BTC which now is $1250-$1300CAD. These customers were from all over the world which is why btc was pretty much the fastest and easiest way of getting paid.

Im on the fence about holding onto it on a hardware/offline wallet for 5-10 years vs cashing it out now.

Obviously I'm the only one that can make the decision to sell or hold it but what would you do? None of this Bitcoin was purchased by me but I've been debating on buying some for myself.

I have the benefit of not needing the $ right now and letting it sit but just can't make up my mind.



So, do you think a 5-10 year or longer hold is still worth it?

While I like the idea of bitcoin, I have a very hard time putting faith in any other coins for a reason I can't explain.
Last edited by XtremeModder on Nov 25th, 2020 11:21 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
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My long term price target for Bitcoin remains $0.
[OP]
Deal Guru
Aug 14, 2007
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FrancisBacon wrote: My long term price target for Bitcoin remains $0.
For what reason? The only way I could see that ever happening is if the entire mining network stopped.
Sr. Member
Jan 24, 2004
546 posts
121 upvotes
I still see it holding some value solely based on people like you who have been using it. There will still be people using it IMO just like how the ICQ network is still running.
Keeping the same value, I'm doubtful.

If you're ever thinking of cashing out or buying, please take into consideration the transaction costs on top of it when you go through an exchange. That's one thing that has swayed me away from going into it cause you need to deal with exchanges or places that have high transaction fees.
Deal Addict
Jul 11, 2007
1743 posts
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If you don't need the money now, why not just hold it? Even if you don't believe in it so much from a utility stand point, you can think of it as insurance and a hedge against a financial system collapse in which case you will be very happy you do have it. Given what is going on now with record levels of money printing basically everywhere in the world, I think it's reasonable to keep at least 1% of your assets in something like Bitcoin.
Member
May 4, 2010
260 posts
253 upvotes
Ottawa
Could venture a bit out on the risk curve with staking and DeFi to earn interest.
[OP]
Deal Guru
Aug 14, 2007
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introspect wrote: Could venture a bit out on the risk curve with staking and DeFi to earn interest.
I've been thinking about the defi stuff and have heard values have gone up so much but haven't looked into which defi tokens are worth it for the long hold. As far as i know they are ERC-20 so can be held in my accounts with the ledger nano s
Deal Addict
May 12, 2014
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XtremeModder wrote: For what reason? The only way I could see that ever happening is if the entire mining network stopped.
It will stop if people abandon it.

Bitcoin combines the worst features of different kinds of money:

- It has no intrinsic value, like fiat. (Unlike gold which has industrial and jewelry use.)

- It has zero privacy, like electronic money: all Bitcoin transactions are logged forever. With ever decreasing effort, one can figure out who you are, and once that's done, your entire lifetime's Bitcoin spending is known.
(Unlike cash which is truly anonymous)

- It is not scarce, like fiat currency. First, the Bitcoin code can be modified as long as a majority of miners agree and therefore the supposedly hard limit of x Bitcoins can be removed. Second, and more importantly, there is an unlimited number of alternative cryptocurrencies that can be created. (Unlike precious metals, where all you have is pretty much gold and silver and you can't invent a new one)

- There are huge and growing tax and regulatory headaches from using it. Some countries consider it a commodity so you need to declare capital gains on every use. Most banks give you a headache if you go back and forth between it and cash. Etc.

- Your death or a computer crash means you or your heirs lose everything if you don't have proper backups (unlike the banking system where everything can eventually be recovered even if a court process may be needed)

Etc.
[OP]
Deal Guru
Aug 14, 2007
12201 posts
3196 upvotes
--
FrancisBacon wrote: It will stop if people abandon it.

Bitcoin combines the worst features of different kinds of money:

- It has no intrinsic value, like fiat. (Unlike gold which has industrial and jewelry use.)

- It has zero privacy, like electronic money: all Bitcoin transactions are logged forever. With ever decreasing effort, one can figure out who you are, and once that's done, your entire lifetime's Bitcoin spending is known.
(Unlike cash which is truly anonymous)

- It is not scarce, like fiat currency. First, the Bitcoin code can be modified as long as a majority of miners agree and therefore the supposedly hard limit of x Bitcoins can be removed. Second, and more importantly, there is an unlimited number of alternative cryptocurrencies that can be created. (Unlike precious metals, where all you have is pretty much gold and silver and you can't invent a new one)

- There are huge and growing tax and regulatory headaches from using it. Some countries consider it a commodity so you need to declare capital gains on every use. Most banks give you a headache if you go back and forth between it and cash. Etc.

- Your death or a computer crash means you or your heirs lose everything if you don't have proper backups (unlike the banking system where everything can eventually be recovered even if a court process may be needed)

Etc.
While I understand some of your points I will say this, good luck finding who I am when using it.

Wallet address changes every time I receive a payment.
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XtremeModder wrote: While I understand some of your points I will say this, good luck finding who I am when using it.

Wallet address changes every time I receive a payment.
Is that also true of everyone who sends you money? Because otherwise all that needs to be done is figure out who they are and ask them who they sent money to.

Point is: Bitcoin is the opposite of anonymous. And it's logged forever. If you want to use the services of a psychiatrist, donate to an unpopular cause, not pay your taxes, or anything else controversial, Bitcoin is the last thing you should use.
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FrancisBacon wrote: Is that also true of everyone who sends you money? Because otherwise all that needs to be done is figure out who they are and ask them who they sent money to.

Point is: Bitcoin is the opposite of anonymous. And it's logged forever. If you want to use the services of a psychiatrist, donate to an unpopular cause, not pay your taxes, or anything else controversial, Bitcoin is the last thing you should use.
That's only if they somehow connect the wallet address to you personally, which is kinda hard to do. Most people don't care if there's a log of things, credit card companies have all this information on you too.
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Deal Addict
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Zero wrote: That's only if they somehow connect the wallet address to you personally, which is kinda hard to do. Most people don't care if there's a log of things, credit card companies have all this information on you too.
Not sure I understand. People tend to know who they give money to, and who they receive it from.

So if wallet #4354644 gives money to this hairdresser, that grocery store, and that Kijiji seller, and receives money from these other Kijiji users, and those 2 or 20 or 200 other people who are clients, then it's not that hard to link.

And yes, credit card companies log this info. However:

1- not forever;

2- not publicly! Everyone (individuals and governments) has access to all Bitcoin transactions, forever; for credit cards you normally need a warrant to access the info.

3- credit cards don't pretend to be private. Many Bitcoin people mistakenly believe it's private.
[OP]
Deal Guru
Aug 14, 2007
12201 posts
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FrancisBacon wrote: Not sure I understand. People tend to know who they give money to, and who they receive it from.

So if wallet #4354644 gives money to this hairdresser, that grocery store, and that Kijiji seller, and receives money from these other Kijiji users, and those 2 or 20 or 200 other people who are clients, then it's not that hard to link.

And yes, credit card companies log this info. However:

1- not forever;

2- not publicly! Everyone (individuals and governments) has access to all Bitcoin transactions, forever; for credit cards you normally need a warrant to access the info.

3- credit cards don't pretend to be private. Many Bitcoin people mistakenly believe it's private.
2 addresses sending BTC between each other aren't that easy to link.

Show me a receiver and sender wallet address on https://www.blockchain.com/explorer and point out the names of those 2 people to me.

For me, I could show you my wallet address (although I'm not going to because I'm too lazy to go and look up one of my transactions) and all you can see is long strings of #s and an amount of BTC and the amount of times it was confirmed. Sure, it'll show that transaction, but you won't see all the other transactions that were sent to me because every time I receive BTC on my offline wallet the next time someone wants to send me BTC the address will be different.


Anyways, privacy issues aside as I don't care and that's not what this is about, for anyone else coming in here are you holding for a long time or is it time to sell for you?
Sr. Member
Jan 24, 2004
546 posts
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stillmatic11 wrote: If you don't need the money now, why not just hold it? Even if you don't believe in it so much from a utility stand point, you can think of it as insurance and a hedge against a financial system collapse in which case you will be very happy you do have it. Given what is going on now with record levels of money printing basically everywhere in the world, I think it's reasonable to keep at least 1% of your assets in something like Bitcoin.
Part of me feels like if it's a big enough financial collapse, having you "value" tied to something supported by a network of computers isn't going to be helpful.

Gold might be a better thing to have in that scenario
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XtremeModder wrote: Anyways, privacy issues aside as I don't care and that's not what this is about, for anyone else coming in here are you holding for a long time or is it time to sell for you?
Holding until at least the election is over. I think it's still on it's way up up up.
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[OP]
Deal Guru
Aug 14, 2007
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--
Zero wrote: Holding until at least the election is over. I think it's still on it's way up up up.
I read something the other day that it trump wins the value will rise fast, if Biden wins itll still rise but slower.

Not sure where the logic in either of those statements is but there's so many stupid things popping up in online news about crypto that I don't know what to believe.

The same thing happens with the stock market
Member
Oct 22, 2020
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FrancisBacon wrote: It will stop if people abandon it.

Bitcoin combines the worst features of different kinds of money:

- It has no intrinsic value, like fiat. (Unlike gold which has industrial and jewelry use.)

- It has zero privacy, like electronic money: all Bitcoin transactions are logged forever. With ever decreasing effort, one can figure out who you are, and once that's done, your entire lifetime's Bitcoin spending is known.
(Unlike cash which is truly anonymous)

- It is not scarce, like fiat currency. First, the Bitcoin code can be modified as long as a majority of miners agree and therefore the supposedly hard limit of x Bitcoins can be removed. Second, and more importantly, there is an unlimited number of alternative cryptocurrencies that can be created. (Unlike precious metals, where all you have is pretty much gold and silver and you can't invent a new one)

- There are huge and growing tax and regulatory headaches from using it. Some countries consider it a commodity so you need to declare capital gains on every use. Most banks give you a headache if you go back and forth between it and cash. Etc.

- Your death or a computer crash means you or your heirs lose everything if you don't have proper backups (unlike the banking system where everything can eventually be recovered even if a court process may be needed)

Etc.
There is a big demand for it.
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Jul 13, 2009
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Unlikely for me.

A coffee is 4CAD. Or 0.0002BTC.
Next month or next year, I know it's still going to be 4cad. BTC? No idea. I'd have to look it up to figure out if I'm getting ripped off for the coffee. I believe that's one of the major hurdles preventing crypto from gaining traction with the populace.

I kinda see it like torrents. In theory it has a good purpose, but most of the usage has mostly been in the gray area.
Thanks.
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Image





The most tech savvy and influential man of our era Elon Musk is now officially a Bitcoiner.

Do you own any Bitcoin? :)


================================================================================================

If you think Bitcoin is a bubble, most likely you just haven't spend the time educating yourself. Will there be a correction? Sure. But this is more of a paradigm shift of money and state being seperated.

Centralized government controlled money where it can be infinitely printed and devalued vs Bitcoin a natively global, digital, decentralized, scarce asset. (This is bigger than the internet)


From Paul Tudor Jones one of the greatest hedge fund managers in the world: “It’s like investing with Steve Jobs and Apple or investing in Google early.”



You don't need to own a whole bitcoin, it is the best performing major asset class since inception 13 years ago, it has the first mover advantage, most trust, most powerful global network of computers securing its blockchain, most decentralized, biggest institutions backing it. It is volatile so you want to have a long time horizon and best way to start investing is to dollar-cost average (DCA) on a weekly or monthly basis. Don't time the market.

Cryptocurrencies on the other hand are more of a venture bet, they are usually pre-mined, have founders and a company behind them so not as decentralized or compareable to Bitcoin.





Listen to this podcast with Michael Saylor a rocket scientist / software engineer, he recently put over half a billion dollars into Bitcoin. He's thinking long term about Bitcoin's future. He has also dedicated his domain www.hope.com as a Bitcoin Resource.

Billionaires and Institutions who are starting to get into Bitcoin:

Elon Musk (Tesla SpaceX)
Paypal
Fidelity
Square Cash App
DBS Bank (Singapore's biggest bank)
Jack Dorsey (CEO Twitter/CashApp)
Stanley Druckenmiller
Paul Tudor Jones (Manages 9 billion in assets)
Bill Miller
Abigail Johnson (CEO Fidelity 3.3 trillion in assets)
Mike Novogratz
Michael Saylor (Billionaire CEO of Microstrategy)
Chamath Palihapitiya (Former senior executive at Facebook)



Image




"We're going to have thousands of executives, officers...directors, & advisors of corporations coming together in the first week of February. They all want to figure out how to plug #bitcoin into their balance sheet or their P&L...We're going to open source it."

Big money is coming into Bitcoin over the next few years,

We are still VERY EARLY in term's of Bitcoin's life cycle, it could eventually disrupt all of finance. Hardcore Bitcoiners believe 1 Bitcoin will eventually be in the millions of dollars. The thing about being early in something is everyone else will think you are crazy.


Hard to believe today, but early on even Apple stock was branded "too risky" in the 1980s.




[ Bitcoin and Cryptos can come off daunting to the newbies, will update this thread as I see fit. ]
Last edited by jcdogg on Apr 1st, 2021 8:25 pm, edited 6 times in total.
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I dont understand bitcoin at all :( is there any good research to help?
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