Travel

Transat To Lay Off Thousands

  • Last Updated:
  • Oct 20th, 2020 9:25 am
Tags:
[OP]
Deal Expert
User avatar
May 10, 2005
35477 posts
9506 upvotes
Ottawa
leoo wrote: Funny, I think the "lock everything" authoritarians are the loud ones.
If you think all these closures and restrictions won't have an economic impact for EVERYONE in the future, you'll be in for a nice surprise.
Or maybe you don't care since the debt and pain will be passed to future generations. Anything to keep YOU safe, right? Who cares about the cost?
I don't think that there is anyone that isn't aware of the economic impact of restrictions and closure. I am quite sure almost everyone has friends, relieves or neighbors that are impacted by this pandemic.
I also don't believe there is anyone that does not care.
The Government cannot give to anybody anything that the Government does not first take from somebody else.
Deal Addict
Dec 20, 2018
3653 posts
2897 upvotes
leoo wrote: Funny, I think the "lock everything" authoritarians are the loud ones.
If you think all these closures and restrictions won't have an economic impact for EVERYONE in the future, you'll be in for a nice surprise.
Or maybe you don't care since the debt and pain will be passed to future generations. Anything to keep YOU safe, right? Who cares about the cost?
the protests are from those against mask and social distancing measures though. any example of the loud ones for lock everything you speak of?

You don't think there's economic impact if we have significantly higher cases and deaths ? I can only look at countries that have done the "best" in terms of economic well being ..those countries also happen to have/had the strictest measures and the least cases. It is precisely because I care about the economy that I take notice of countries who've done the "best" in preserving their economies and how they handled the virus (and it's not rolling back restrictions before they got cases well under control).

I don't think following India or the US is better for us be it economically or for health. You think if we roll back all the restrictions, there'll be no economic impacts? if we opened the border and have zero quarantine requirements, are all our hotels/planes be full and economy will be fine? its important to have a longer term perspective here IMO
Newbie
Mar 11, 2009
61 posts
111 upvotes
Calgary
Pete_Coach wrote: I don't think that there is anyone that isn't aware of the economic impact of restrictions and closure. I am quite sure almost everyone has friends, relieves or neighbors that are impacted by this pandemic.
If people understood the impacts of money printing and excessive borrowing, the Liberals would be in trouble.
On the contrary, there are many asking for universal basic income now.
Pete_Coach wrote: I also don't believe there is anyone that does not care.
I used to have this optimistic view of people too, before this pandemic.
Now I see many acting on their self interests: "I'm not affected by X then it's ok to shut it down".

The border closure is just delaying the inevitable, you just need to look at New Zealand and Australia to see they're not a solution.
If we plan to keep it closed until (and if) there's a vaccine, we should understand the costs. The thousands laid off from Transat do. And they're just the beginning.
Deal Addict
Mar 16, 2007
1112 posts
198 upvotes
So again, what is the alternative? Open it up and let the fun begin again? Where do you think many of these new cases are coming from? Maybe a super jetstream is carrying them here. We can fly new cases in again, just like when it first reached our shores, and then let the Community spread take over for good measure. Then Ford and company can shut down the province again, and all kids be sent home from school. Yes, excellent choice.

If that scenario happens, please let me know how the economy will improve?
Newbie
Mar 11, 2009
61 posts
111 upvotes
Calgary
StatsGuy wrote: the protests are from those against mask and social distancing measures though. any example of the loud ones for lock everything you speak of?
Just look at the comments every time there's an announcement about the border closure extensions, how most canadians are completely against ANY reopening. Look at BC residents vandalizing cars with US plates.
The protests against masks and social distancing are mostly ignored (and sometimes ridiculed) by the media so they're hardly "loud", they're barely heard.
StatsGuy wrote: You don't think there's economic impact if we have significantly higher cases and deaths ? I can only look at countries that have done the "best" in terms of economic well being ..those countries also happen to have/had the strictest measures and the least cases. It is precisely because I care about the economy that I take notice of countries who've done the "best" in preserving their economies and how they handled the virus (and it's not rolling back restrictions before they got cases well under control).
Like Australia, which entered its first recession in 30 years?
We'll need time to assess if these completely locked down countries won't see any impact from the crazy money printing and borrowing, not to mention the mental health impact and uncertainty created by the closures.
Just because their economy isn't a disaster now, it doesn't mean there won't be consequences in the future.
StatsGuy wrote: I don't think following India or the US is better for us be it economically or for health. You think if we roll back all the restrictions, there'll be no economic impacts?
India had a hard lockdown until recently. They had to open because people were starving. The restrictions were disproportionately hitting the poorest.
You can't really compare Canada with the most populous countries in the world. Don't you think our healthcare system can't handle the cases? I still remember when this was all about "flattening the curve". Now we think we can eliminate this virus by shutting down completely.
StatsGuy wrote: if we opened the border and have zero quarantine requirements, are all our hotels/planes be full and economy will be fine? its important to have a longer term perspective here IMO
Of course not! Working on reopening doesn't mean forcing people to take vacations. It's about letting people travel if they want to and saving some jobs in the process.
Carefully reopening does not mean that our hospitals will be overloaded. Brazil has reopened its borders (with no restrictions and checks) in August and cases/deaths are down trending.
Last edited by leoo on Sep 14th, 2020 7:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Newbie
Mar 11, 2009
61 posts
111 upvotes
Calgary
tripwire wrote: So again, what is the alternative? Open it up and let the fun begin again? Where do you think many of these new cases are coming from? Maybe a super jetstream is carrying them here. We can fly new cases in again, just like when it first reached our shores, and then let the Community spread take over for good measure. Then Ford and company can shut down the province again, and all kids be sent home from school. Yes, excellent choice.

If that scenario happens, please let me know how the economy will improve?
Yeah let's do what you propose: keep everything as it is until the vaccine is widely distributed, probably mid-2021.
Do you even know how much programs like CERB cost every month?

Imagine the scenario where the vaccine isn't effective enough. So in mid-2021 we realize we waited over a year and we still can't reopen most things. What's the plan?
The virus is already here, if you haven't noticed, and we have to learn to live with it. Authoritarian measure only work in places like China.
Deal Addict
Mar 16, 2007
1112 posts
198 upvotes
leoo wrote: Yeah let's do what you propose: keep everything as it is until the vaccine is widely distributed, probably mid-2021.
Do you even know how much programs like CERB cost every month?

Imagine the scenario where the vaccine isn't effective enough. So in mid-2021 we realize we waited over a year and we still can't reopen most things. What's the plan?
The virus is already here, if you haven't noticed, and we have to learn to live with it. Authoritarian measure only work in places like China.
So Ford and Trudeau should tell the populace that everything was for nothing, and it's time to open it up and start the party. So what happens when we quickly get to 1k a day and everyone runs to the Hospital? I say we tell them go home and quit whining, suck it up. What happens with schools? Do we tell our kids be quiet and suck it up, go to school with Covid? Or when the schools close do we have to stay home from work? How's the economy going to function then? The economy will go nowhere with Covid running rampant in our homes, schools, and workplace.
Deal Addict
Mar 16, 2007
1112 posts
198 upvotes
See, in a perfect World, we can install measures that could make things better for balancing Covid and the economy. Problem is, if you leave it to the general population that is filled with selfishness and Darwin Award nominees, you get people going out and travelling, with no care at all of who they will infect. Bottom line is, people need rules because most cannot think properly.
Newbie
Mar 11, 2009
61 posts
111 upvotes
Calgary
tripwire wrote: So Ford and Trudeau should tell the populace that everything was for nothing, and it's time to open it up and start the party.
Don’t worry, people will eventually realize it was all for nothing, politicians will never admit that and will only keep the narrative they saved lives (at the expense of others).
Peru and Argentina closed their borders early and hard - remember in March all the stories about canadians stuck in Peru because they locked down the country overnight? Look at their numbers now, Peru is second place on “deaths by population”. Only San Marino is worse.
As far as I know, India’s borders are still closed and they’re the hotspot at the moment.

Flu season is coming, let’s see what happens here. Borders will still be closed and incoming travellers will be still subject to 14-day quarantines but you’ll still blame international travellers.

About the economy, we have different opinions about what’s going to happen and it’s pointless to argue.
We’ll know the answer next year but look at how much the canadian economy contracted this year with all the restrictions.
Newbie
Mar 11, 2009
61 posts
111 upvotes
Calgary
tripwire wrote: See, in a perfect World, we can install measures that could make things better for balancing Covid and the economy. Problem is, if you leave it to the general population that is filled with selfishness and Darwin Award nominees, you get people going out and travelling, with no care at all of who they will infect. Bottom line is, people need rules because most cannot think properly.
I see your point but it sounds like China or Russia.
Some people like a big government telling them what to do, others not so much.
Deal Addict
Mar 16, 2007
1112 posts
198 upvotes
leoo wrote: I see your point but it sounds like China or Russia.
Some people like a big government telling them what to do, others not so much.
Why can't people not go out when sick, and choosing to spread this with no care? Why can't we live with Covid as you say? We can't because of what I said before. Contact Tracing is one of the biggest weapons in living with the virus, yet we all freak out over privacy instead. Wearing a mask, so easy in public places, yet the Government had to make it into law because we are selfish humans. Easy things to live with, yet we argue about it all instead. It's the population's fault that this keeps spreading, plain and simple. We have already showed that we are not capable of living with Covid without rules.
Newbie
Mar 11, 2009
61 posts
111 upvotes
Calgary
tripwire wrote: Why can't people not go out when sick, and choosing to spread this with no care? Why can't we live with Covid as you say?
I can’t answer that because I’m not one of those people. I consider myself responsible and considerate of others, have no problems wearing masks and don’t mind a contact tracing app on my phone.
What I’m against is the government issuing heavy fines and threatening people with arrest. What’s happening in Australia (especially Melbourne) now is disgusting and I don’t want to see the same in Canada.
Deal Addict
May 16, 2017
1372 posts
1687 upvotes
leoo wrote: Don’t worry, people will eventually realize it was all for nothing, politicians will never admit that and will only keep the narrative they saved lives (at the expense of others).
Peru and Argentina closed their borders early and hard - remember in March all the stories about canadians stuck in Peru because they locked down the country overnight? Look at their numbers now, Peru is second place on “deaths by population”. Only San Marino is worse.
As far as I know, India’s borders are still closed and they’re the hotspot at the moment.

...
You're incorrectly trying to draw a correlation between external border controls and places that are currently hotspots for infection. Clearly, as everyone knows, external border controls are but one limited element in the control of the spread of infections.

Talk about cherry-picking data.
Newbie
Mar 11, 2009
61 posts
111 upvotes
Calgary
robsaw wrote: You're incorrectly trying to draw a correlation between external border controls and places that are currently hotspots for infection. Clearly, as everyone knows, external border controls are but one limited element in the control of the spread of infections.

Talk about cherry-picking data.
My point was that closed borders do not mean we’re safe and open borders do not mean we’re doomed. There are examples on both sides
The answer is somewhere in the middle and I do know, by your posts in this forum, that you’re on the “close everything” extreme.
Deal Addict
Mar 16, 2007
1112 posts
198 upvotes
I have gone through many lists but cannot find countries that have open borders with zero rules in place, (ie, no quarantine and travelers allowed from anywhere, including heavily infected countries). Can someone link if they know of any. I think it's bad enough we are allowing Delhi flights with no restrictions. Telling them to self-quarantine, hahahahahaha, yes well done. Peel has spiked for a reason, and I wonder why? Our travel rules are not enough, and allowing too many cases into the country daily as is.

https://www.worldnomads.com/travel-safe ... vel-alerts

Top