Personal Finance

United First Financial (Scam Warning)

  • Last Updated:
  • May 24th, 2011 7:51 pm
Newbie
Jun 30, 2010
22 posts
2 upvotes
KenMc wrote: JoeTaxpayer, are you not aware that with the Money Merge Account system you can actually run any number of different scenarios in order to determine the shortest time to payoff and least amount of interest remaining? You can, for example, delete the line of credit and compare the result by using just a savings and chequing account.

Perhaps it would be beneficial for you to log into the actual Money Merge Account for yourself...http://mma4.unitedfirstfinancial.com. Please PM me for my username & password.
Joe's played with the actual Money Merge Account. If you would go to his site and read his widely underead series on the MMA, you would see his analysis of it with full screen shots. Do your credentials posted in #158 still work? If they do, then there is no need to PM.

Have you looked into my example when I used the Money Merge Account to run through 4 years worth of transactions that show a user has paid more total interest (mortgage and HELOC), has less in savings, and has more debt than someone who just sent their discretionary income to their mortgage?
Member
May 16, 2010
272 posts
Steinbach, Manitoba,…
sslinn wrote: $100 was the minimum for the lender I was with. I would consider a prepayment of $100 small.
Yes smaller payments like that can work. The program will look at all debts/mortgages, work on building the account, prompt when to make transfers to whatever accounts and it may not just be one account at a time. The program will analyze the situation in order to get all the debt paid down the quickest, so as long as our client follows the prompts and reminders of the program he/she will get the results of the promised time to pay off.
Deal Addict
Feb 4, 2008
3133 posts
177 upvotes
KenMc wrote: Yes smaller payments like that can work. The program will look at all debts/mortgages, work on building the account, prompt when to make transfers to whatever accounts and it may not just be one account at a time. The program will analyze the situation in order to get all the debt paid down the quickest, so as long as our client follows the prompts and reminders of the program he/she will get the results of the promised time to pay off.
Why build the account at all? No money should be sitting around doing nothing when it could be offsetting interest. You have $20, pay a bit on a credit card.

Using the MMA with a savings and chequing account is just more smoke and mirrors. Don't let the money sit in an account, pay off debt.

We are back to where we started. Round and round we go.

The program should put the money toward the highest interest debt first. Kill that debt before tackling others. How hard of a concept in this for UFirst and yourself?
www.mortgagecalculatortoolkit.com

Do your mortgage math correctly!
Member
May 16, 2010
272 posts
Steinbach, Manitoba,…
Late2Game wrote: Joe's played with the actual Money Merge Account. If you would go to his site and read his widely underead series on the MMA, you would see his analysis of it with full screen shots. Do your credentials posted in #158 still work? If they do, then there is no need to PM.
Yes, you can use those...go ahead!
Late2Game wrote: Have you looked into my example when I used the Money Merge Account to run through 4 years worth of transactions that show a user has paid more total interest (mortgage and HELOC), has less in savings, and has more debt than someone who just sent their discretionary income to their mortgage?
Ahh, excuse me Late2Game and JoeTaxpayer, but this is not a competition!!! Go ahead and figure out things on your own...it is a free country. The Money Merge Account system is not for everyone, so some people may want to use your system, their own system, or no system; I really don't care.

What I do with each of my prospective clients is very simple; please pay attention carefully...
  1. I make sure people understand the details of their amortization schedule; particularly the total dollar cost of not making prepayments to principal,
  2. I then help people understand that the banks use our money to earn profits...it is called leverage!
  3. I then explain that we, also have the ability to pay an extremely small interest cost on a line of credit by using leverage to cancel the insanely high interest costs we are paying on our mortgages,
  4. I explain to them that because they do not have to change their budget one iota, they can use leverage to cancel mortgage interest without becoming cash poor,
  5. I then make sure they can do all of this on their own, using a lower cost spreadsheet like Joe's or sslinn's, worshipping at the church of Dave Ramsay, etc.
  6. I then explain that they can hire me as their professional financial educator and make a one time payment of $3,500.00 to have their finances monitored 24/7/365 by a team of professional coaches who will mentor you, I mean instruct you on how to use the system so that it best benefits you!!!
These clients then are so delighted with my services that they refer me to their family and friends who also purchase my services. The reason this happens is because United First Financial is not a scam!
Deal Addict
Feb 4, 2008
3133 posts
177 upvotes
KenMc wrote: Yes, you can use those...go ahead!


Ahh, excuse me Late2Game and JoeTaxpayer, but this is not a competition!!! Go ahead and figure out things on your own...it is a free country. The Money Merge Account system is not for everyone, so some people may want to use your system, their own system, or no system; I really don't care.

What I do with each of my prospective clients is very simple; please pay attention carefully...
  1. I make sure people understand the details of their amortization schedule; particularly the total dollar cost of not making prepayments to principal,
  2. I then help people understand that the banks use our money to earn profits...it is called leverage!
  3. I then explain that we, also have the ability to pay an extremely small interest cost on a line of credit by using leverage to cancel the insanely high interest costs we are paying on our mortgages,
  4. I explain to them that because they do not have to change their budget one iota, they can use leverage to cancel mortgage interest without becoming cash poor,
  5. I then make sure they can do all of this on their own, using a lower cost spreadsheet like Joe's or sslinn's, worshipping at the church of Dave Ramsay, etc.
  6. I then explain that they can hire me as their professional financial educator and make a one time payment of $3,500.00 to have their finances monitored 24/7/365 by a team of professional coaches who will mentor you, I mean instruct you on how to use the system so that it best benefits you!!!
These clients then are so delighted with my services that they refer me to their family and friends who also purchase my services. The reason this happens is because United First Financial is not a scam!
Ken, you are getting closer and closer. Why not keep doing what you are doing, but ditch UFirst, their software, the inefficiencies and all of the negativity around UFirst?

Cut out the middle man (UFirst) and don't charge your clients as much for a spreadsheet and your coaching. You can cut the clients costs and increase your income at the same time if you cut UFirst's portion of the commission in half.

Or go back to placing mortgages and don't charge your clients a dime for a spreadsheet you create or your advice. You would then have the respect of everyone in this thread. :)
www.mortgagecalculatortoolkit.com

Do your mortgage math correctly!
Member
May 16, 2010
272 posts
Steinbach, Manitoba,…
sslinn wrote: Ken, you are getting closer and closer. Why not keep doing what you are doing, but ditch UFirst, their software, the inefficiencies and all of the negativity around UFirst?
Excellent questions, sslinn!

The reason I keep doing what I am doing is because I have fallen in love with the UFirst staff, due to their exceptionally professional, fast, courteous, and knowledgeable support network of people who's command of the English language is superb (As opposed to many other call centers with whom I have had the misfortune of being on hold far too often). Having worked in the automobile business for 19.5 years before I became a mortgage agent, I learned a lot about how not to satisfy a customer, and I came to the conclusion that the best long term business plan is to focus on client satisfaction rather than trying to attract the new customer all the time. Advertising is so expensive, and if more businesses in our country were more client focused, both they and the clients would be better off, in my opinion.

Also, until my wife and I were introduced to UFirst, we had never before made any kind of serious effort to pay off our mortgage faster. Now, however, we realize how expensive this decision not to prepay our mortgage has been, and the comparatively small amount of money we have paid to have our finances monitored continuously and receive top notch mentoring has been well worth it, again in our opinion.

There is absolutely no inefficiency with the UFirst math. They use the same math that the rest of you use, and to suggest that they would intentionally use slower math is absolutely 100% preposterous! The reason why the UFirst system appears to be less efficient than your models is very simple...here it is...
  1. The UFirst system allows the client to pick his/her poison; in other words, the client's income, expenses, and discretionary income scenario are all taken into account to create the promised payoff time,
  2. Any reduction in income or increase in expenses along the way will shorten the payoff time even more, and
  3. I cannot prove this, but I personally believe that the UFirst payoff times are slightly under-promised, due to the company's desire to exceed client expectations as well as create a buffer in order to reduce their own company liability.
As far as negativity, I couldn't care less! I do not worry about naysayers like many on this forum. I respect their right to have an opinion, and I have learned a great deal by being on this thread, but I really do not worry about it. I am very confident in the ability God has given me to do my job, and as a rule my clients respect my efforts. As far as UFirst goes, many of the negativity has been brought on by themselves. For example, their decision to use a network marketing style of product distribution is something that many people do not like. Early on I made the mistake of trying to recruit business partners to join my team; however, I found that more often than not it would scare people off. As a result, I now focus on sales rather than recruiting.
sslinn wrote: Cut out the middle man (UFirst) and don't charge your clients as much for a spreadsheet and your coaching. You can cut the clients costs and increase your income at the same time if you cut UFirst's portion of the commission in half.

UFirst is not the middle man. UFirst is the key cog in the machine that provides the strategy and support necessary to keep this crusade going, despite the tough times for any U.S.-based financial services company.
sslinn wrote: Or go back to placing mortgages and don't charge your clients a dime for a spreadsheet you create or your advice. You would then have the respect of everyone in this thread. :)
I humbly suggest that I already have the respect of everyone in this thread. I am well aware that I may not be well-liked by some on this forum, but I am ok with that.

As far as placing mortgages goes, sslinn, do you think everyone on this forum is aware of the average dollar amount that a mortgage broker typically is paid by the lender? Is everyone on this forum aware of the typical legal / closing costs bill that homeowners need to fork over when they purchase their home. Is everyone on this forum aware of the typical CMHC insurance fees that a consumer is paying for his/her mortgage? (Fees that the consumer pays in order to protect the bank!) What about realtor commissions per house sale? Many of our clients are saving over $100,000.00 or more in interest costs on their debt by learning how to bank like a bank and use leverage to cancel interest. Would $10,000.00 be too much to pay for that? What about 6, 5, or $4,000.00? For as little as $3,500.00 one-time or $495.00 up front and $49.95/month with no contract, our clients are receiving some tremendous benefits!

Now in some cases, I spend a lot of time teaching a prospective client how to use leverage to cancel interest, and the individual says, "Thanks anyway, but I think I will not pay you anything, and I think I will get out of debt on my own." When that happens, I wish the person well and move on to the next prospective customer.
Newbie
Jun 30, 2010
22 posts
2 upvotes
KenMc wrote: Yes, you can use those...go ahead!


Ahh, excuse me Late2Game and JoeTaxpayer, but this is not a competition!!! Go ahead and figure out things on your own...it is a free country. The Money Merge Account system is not for everyone, so some people may want to use your system, their own system, or no system; I really don't care.
When you copy and paste typical UFirst "drivel" claiming the Money Merge Account is the "fastest" way to pay down debt, or that it "calculates" precisely to the "penny" the most advantageous transfer amount, or that there are cases where drawing from a 10% HELOC to pay a 6% mortgage (as suggested by the MMA) can beat just prepaying the debt w/disc. income, it does become a "competition". But not between the MMA and DIY (that race was decided a long time ago, and the MMA loses everytime. I showed an example with 7% HELOC and 6% mortgage that showed the MMA losing after just 4 years.)

The real competition on this board is to see whose posts will give you pause to think and say, "you know, even if some of the posters on this board can sometimes be acerbic or come off as slightly rude, there is truth to what many are saying. I now see how my rhetoric describing the MMA is stretching truths, leaving out important truths, and at times completely false."

That is the real competition.
Deal Addict
Feb 4, 2008
3133 posts
177 upvotes
[QUOTE]Also, until my wife and I were introduced to UFirst, we had never before made any kind of serious effort to pay off our mortgage faster. Now, however, we realize how expensive this decision not to prepay our mortgage has been, and the comparatively small amount of money we have paid to have our finances monitored continuously and receive top notch mentoring has been well worth it, again in our opinion.[/QUOTE]

You were a mortgage broker and it took Ufirst for you to realize this? You are kidding, right?

[QUOTE]There is absolutely no inefficiency with the UFirst math. They use the same math that the rest of you use, and to suggest that they would intentionally use slower math is absolutely 100% preposterous! The reason why the UFirst system appears to be less efficient than your models is very simple...here it is...[/QUOTE]

Moving money from your chequing account to a savings account to build up a lump sum to make debt payments is preposterous. Move it right from your chequing account to your debts. The software's math "might" be accurate but the logic that Ufirst uses is flawed.

[QUOTE]As far as placing mortgages goes, sslinn, do you think everyone on this forum is aware of the average dollar amount that a mortgage broker typically is paid by the lender?[/QUOTE]

No, but if it is not coming out of their pocket and they are getting a highly competitive rate, why would they care? What is the point of your question?


[QUOTE]Is everyone on this forum aware of the typical legal / closing costs bill that homeowners need to fork over when they purchase their home.[/QUOTE]

Likely. What is the point of your question?

[QUOTE]Is everyone on this forum aware of the typical CMHC insurance fees that a consumer is paying for his/her mortgage? (Fees that the consumer pays in order to protect the bank!)[/QUOTE]

They will when they get their commitment explained to them. What is the point of your question?

[QUOTE]What about realtor commissions per house sale?[/QUOTE]

The seller, yes. The buyer, maybe. What is the point of your question?

[QUOTE]Many of our clients are saving over $100,000.00 or more in interest costs on their debt by learning how to bank like a bank and use leverage to cancel interest. Would $10,000.00 be too much to pay for that? What about 6, 5, or $4,000.00? For as little as $3,500.00 one-time or $495.00 up front and $49.95/month with no contract, our clients are receiving some tremendous benefits![/QUOTE]

You mean they have a projected savings, don't you?

I have a projected savings of over $300K on my mortgage? A nickel would be too much to pay for that as it is very easy to do on my own.

What coaching do you have to offer? Once you know how to use the software isn't everything automatic?
www.mortgagecalculatortoolkit.com

Do your mortgage math correctly!
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Feb 19, 2010
6139 posts
2917 upvotes
KenMc wrote: These clients then are so delighted with my services that they refer me to their family and friends who also purchase my services. The reason this happens is because they've been bamboozled by a smooth-talking con-artist and have yet to realize that United First Financial is a scam!
Fixed it for ya.
Newbie
Jun 30, 2010
22 posts
2 upvotes
KenMc wrote: There is absolutely no inefficiency with the UFirst math.
False.
  1. The first inefficiency is the cost of the program $3,500. This is an anchor that puts any user behind compared to DIY.
  2. The second is the poor use of transfers to a higher interest rate HELOC, forcing a user to pay more in interest than they otherwise would doing a DIY method. JoeTaxpayer has shown this in his series, I have linked to my example in post #603, and there are many others out there.
  3. Third, having no actual awareness of beneficial rates, like if a HELOC was much lower than the mortgage. The MMA does not optimize a comfortable debt load on the HELOC while interest rates are lower, which would save more interest over the life of the mortgage.
  4. Fourth, when only a savings and checking are available, the excessive transfers from checking to savings to mortgage are not optimized for all idle cash (above a user's minimum threshold of course).
  5. Fifth, the MMA takes no account for better use of cash than paying down a mortgage or a focused debt. A match in a defined contribution benefit plan by an employer is free money. The MMA can not analyize strategic use of equity in the multiple property option if paying down mortgage debt would not be the best use of all income.
They use the same math that the rest of you use, and to suggest that they would intentionally use slower math is absolutely 100% preposterous! The reason why the UFirst system appears to be less efficient than your models is very simple...here it is...
  1. The UFirst system allows the client to pick his/her poison; in other words, the client's income, expenses, and discretionary income scenario are all taken into account to create the promised payoff time,
  2. Any reduction in income or increase in expenses along the way will shorten the payoff time even more, and
  3. I cannot prove this, but I personally believe that the UFirst payoff times are slightly under-promised, due to the company's desire to exceed client expectations as well as create a buffer in order to reduce their own company liability.
1) Makes no sense. The only "choice" offered to the client is the "acceleration" scale. I guess you could "choose" to incorrectly put your income, expenses, etc. in the program. Why would a user do that?
2) This is not exclusive to the MMA user. Anyone who learns about debt, prepayments, and specifically a budget can make positive changes without the expensive & inefficient MMA. If it was solely due to using the MMA, more than 25-30% of the clients who originally started would still be on it, as BartBandy has posted.
3) If your conjecture is true, than that would make every agent who claims that "using the MMA will allow you to pay your debts off in the FASTEST possible manner" liars.
Newbie
Jun 30, 2010
22 posts
2 upvotes
Plus, the MMA does not allow you to print or export the transactions for your records. As a former client, Sandy, posted:[QUOTE]Regarding the print function … it’s against the contract to print or save anything from the program, under their “Restrictions” paragraph. You may not “download or save a copy of any of the screens appearing in the Program or UFirst’s website for any purpose.” So to keep a screenshot to prove that the program is not functioning correctly is a breach of contract.[/QUOTE]
I remeber reading on another site about a client who used UFirst's "UDeduct" program (similar to the MMA, but only available in the states) to track business expenses, possible tax deductions, etc by entering in meticulously all these little values. He was livid come tax time when he found out there was no way to export all this data for his records.
Member
May 16, 2010
272 posts
Steinbach, Manitoba,…
sslinn wrote: You were a mortgage broker and it took Ufirst for you to realize this? You are kidding, right?
I wish I were kidding, but no, I am not kidding...making a prepayment to my mortgage just hasn't been a priority, and up to this point in time no one had pointed that out to me. Either that, or I wasn't listening. I am just being honest.
sslinn wrote: Moving money from your chequing account to a savings account to build up a lump sum to make debt payments is preposterous. Move it right from your chequing account to your debts. The software's math "might" be accurate but the logic that Ufirst uses is flawed.
You have a right to your opinion.
sslinn wrote: No, but if it is not coming out of their pocket and they are getting a highly competitive rate, why would they care? What is the point of your question?

Likely. What is the point of your question?

They will when they get their commitment explained to them. What is the point of your question?

The seller, yes. The buyer, maybe. What is the point of your question?
The point of all these questions is simple.
  1. There is nothing wrong with charging money for a product and service. If a prospective client feels he does not need the item or it is not worth the money, he simply does not buy it, and
  2. For you to suggest that you give advice for free is misleading. You are paid by the lender, the same way I was paid when I was a mortgage broker.
sslinn wrote: You mean they have a projected savings, don't you?

I have a projected savings of over $300K on my mortgage? A nickel would be too much to pay for that as it is very easy to do on my own.
Our savings is projected if we choose not to prepay our debt on our own or choose not to follow the prompts and reminders of the MMA system. If we do choose to prepay our debt on our own or we do choose to follow the prompts and reminders or our MMA system, then our savings are not projected...they are immediately realized.

Yes, it is very easy to pay off our own debt by using our own money. For whatever reason, however, many Canadians simply have either been unable or unwilling to do so. As a result, many people struggle with debt issues.

The difference with United First Financial, is that we do not tell people how to pay off their debt by using their own money; we teach people how to bank like a bank and use leverage to pay off debt. In other words, we show people how to use the bank's money to pay off the bank. After all, the banks have been making very high profit margins on our money, so isn't it about time someone turns the table around?
sslinn wrote: What coaching do you have to offer? Once you know how to use the software isn't everything automatic?
Not at all. There is much more to learn than just the software. sslinn, I do not know you, but you seem to be a very disciplined and accurate person. You strike me as someone who wants to understand the rules of the game and play accordingly. Unfortunately, many people are not like you. Many people make hasty decisions without much thought. Many people find it difficult to grasp simple logic; they seem to make all of their decisions from the gut and are very emotional about things that involve money. Other people are very cautious and hesitant to do anything that would not be in accordance with the bank's prescribed plan. Many of these people need ongoing coaching and mentoring, and we work with all types of personalities. We don't just tell people what to do...we actually want them to be successful in their endeavors to achieve accelerated financial freedom.

Before any of this happens, however, we use a simple amortization schedule to help us teach our prospective clients exactly what they can do to use leverage to pay off debt on their own, without our help. We then give them the option to hire us to provide ongoing monitoring and mentoring services in return for their payment. Whether people choose to use us or pay off debt on their own, either way is fine by me.
Deal Addict
Feb 4, 2008
3133 posts
177 upvotes
I will reply in detail later but for now are you telling me that your coaching goes something like this:

Ken: Hi Ken, here.

Client: Hi Ken, its Billy-Bob. I really want to buy a new truck. Should I?

Ken: Was is wrong with the truck you have now?

Billy-Bob: Nothing.

Ken: You don't need a new truck.

Billy-Bob: Thanks Ken, how much have you saved me in total now?

Ken: Over $100,000 and rising.

Billy-bob: Thanks Ken, you are amazing.

Enough said.
www.mortgagecalculatortoolkit.com

Do your mortgage math correctly!
Jr. Member
Aug 4, 2009
110 posts
3 upvotes
Massachusetts, USA
Ken - I realize how pointless this conversation has become.

One by one, you dismiss every logical objection those here give you.
The simple fact that the system fail to come close to DIY is among the things you toss aside.

The classic example is pretty straightforward, another agent showing, with those numbers, a year's worth of movements. You dismiss it, refuse to show your own, then state that "fastest way to zero" does not matter.

You also toss aside the "you can't do this on your own" claim. To be fair, I've lost track of the merely false claims made by UFirst and the outrageous unsubstantiated innumerate claims of many agents.

I feel when talking to you we have gone deep into "I know you are, but what am I" land. Which is not too far from "I'm rubber, you're glue" town.

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