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What happens to law students that are not in the top 5%?

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  • Jan 29th, 2019 2:24 pm
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Member
Jul 10, 2008
292 posts
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North York

What happens to law students that are not in the top 5%?

that are not top 5, but perhaps top 20% relative to their peers?
Friend currently in second year, zero summer work found. Panicking no articling job for 3rd year.
I understand past decade, regulated or not, forget bay street, even sesame street
work is hard to find, lol. Up to a third, end up not even pursuing law I believe? 100k Debt as well. (undergrad incld)
Any insight?

Thanks
Last edited by xcentric on Jan 21st, 2019 3:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Title edit
76 replies
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Oct 18, 2014
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I’m not sure I understand what you are saying or asking...

Are you asking what happens to students who can’t find a job post graduation?
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Nov 10, 2018
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Sure, happy to provide insight here, although you won't like it.

People seem to believe that law students, and law graduates will suddenly find themselves in cushy jobs that pay half decent. This could not be farther from the truth. I must have put in a solid 18 hours a day for close to a decade before I found any semblance of work life balance, before deciding to go into management at a tech firm instead of the usual path of trying to make name partner.

There is a LOT of panicking with law students these days. We are, IMHO, admitting far more law students than we know what to do with. It's common that several law students can't find articling gigs, at all. I would, if your budget allows for it, suggest that you work for free. I know, this is ridiculous, but if most people on here knew how tough I know law students have it these days, no one would go to law school.

I know several people who started in law who didn't end up even bothering to pass the bar and switched professions. Lawyers are a dime a dozen these days, and we are slowly being replaced just like cab drivers are being replaced by Uber. Truth be told, I think it's about damn time. There's only so many years we can rape clients of their money for basic things. This last part is the one part about law I always abhorred.

The world needs less crappy lawyers, and there sure is a lot of them. As far as your case is concerned, just keep at it. Sorry to say, that depending on where you live, there is probably an oversaturation of law students.

To answer your question, if you can't find an articling job, read this: https://lso.ca/becoming-licensed/lawyer ... ce-program
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
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Dec 27, 2009
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xcentric wrote: that are not top 5, but perhaps top 20% relative to their peers?
Friend currently in second year, zero summer work found. Panicking no articling job for 3rd year.
I understand past decade, regulated or not, forget bay street, even sesame street
work is hard to find, lol. Up to a third, end up not even pursuing law I believe? 100k Debt as well. (undergrad incld)
Any insight?

Thanks
Your post is a little disjointed and hard to read. Why say "friend"? Just say it is you and ask your questions.
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Mar 17, 2016
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It's definitely tough out there for the aspiring lawyers. The field is very over saturated. Universities and law schools (to lesser degree) are pumping out diplomas like no tomorrow.

I personally knew a guy that finished law school with an A- average and he couldn't even find articling for 2 years. He eventually gave up and went into another field.
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Aug 31, 2017
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A lot of value can still be found with this experience, especially within insurance firms.
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May 18, 2009
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all the big companies could use workers with a law background.

DOnt need to be a full-fledged lawyer.

look at insurance companies or small law offices. Wal Mart has a law office with people like your friend, probably.

tell your friend to gather his other less successful friends and start their own firm?
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Nov 10, 2018
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yesstyle wrote: all the big companies could use workers with a law background.

DOnt need to be a full-fledged lawyer.

look at insurance companies or small law offices. Wal Mart has a law office with people like your friend, probably.

tell your friend to gather his other less successful friends and start their own firm?
The issue comes down to pay. Sure, there are a LOT of lawyers out there, but there really aren't a whole lot of lawyers that get paid "well", which I'll define loosely as exceeding $150,000/year.

The real money is made in specialty law, say, corporate law. M&As, etc. These lawyers are typically not employed by law firms, much to the surprise of many. When I finally landed a job at a tech firm, with my legal background, I started at around $250K base. When I was articling, let's just say I made close to minimum wage. The law profession is very similar, in many ways, to the profession of being an airline pilot. The salary is exponential based on experience.
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
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Jul 12, 2008
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If you stay with it and you get a good job, it seems to be worth it but if you end up not pursuing law or getting a bad job out of school the debt could take forever to pay.

My friend went to one of the Toronto law school and will be at 100k base at age 26, many in my friend’s firm get to the 200k to 300k range before 35 (7th year associate/junior partner level Bay Street). Plenty of articles online though about people dropping out after they finish it and even about people leaving good jobs within a year or 2 after starting.
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Aug 31, 2017
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badmus wrote: If you stay with it and you get a good job, it seems to be worth it but if you end up not pursuing law or getting a bad job out of school the debt could take forever to pay.

My friend went to one of the Toronto law school and will be at 100k base at age 26, many in my friend’s firm get to the 200k to 300k range before 35 (7th year associate/junior partner level Bay Street). Plenty of articles online though about people dropping out after they finish it and even about people leaving good jobs within a year or 2 after starting.
Definitley sounds like your friend had a connection set up beforehand. Nothing wrong with that, but I don’t think it’s realistic
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Aug 31, 2017
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angryaudifanatic wrote: The issue comes down to pay. Sure, there are a LOT of lawyers out there, but there really aren't a whole lot of lawyers that get paid "well", which I'll define loosely as exceeding $150,000/year.

The real money is made in specialty law, say, corporate law. M&As, etc. These lawyers are typically not employed by law firms, much to the surprise of many. When I finally landed a job at a tech firm, with my legal background, I started at around $250K base. When I was articling, let's just say I made close to minimum wage. The law profession is very similar, in many ways, to the profession of being an airline pilot. The salary is exponential based on experience.
Well yes, the more niche the field the more money to be paid. However, getting into a reputable company with a law degree can still open many doors. People just watch those flashy American shows and think well that’s going to be me. Nothing wrong to aspire of course, but have a reasonable plan
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MyNameWasTaken wrote: Definitley sounds like your friend had a connection set up beforehand. Nothing wrong with that, but I don’t think it’s realistic
A fairly good percentage of Osgoode and Uoft law students who want roles like this can probably get it look up their employment reports and look up the salary progression for Bay Street lawyers.

Even Western and Queens aren’t too far behind but there are a lot of hurdles/risk involved.
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Nov 10, 2018
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badmus wrote: A fairly good percentage of Osgoode and Uoft law students who want roles like this can probably get it look up their employment reports and look up the salary progression for Bay Street lawyers.

Even Western and Queens aren’t too far behind but there are a lot of hurdles/risk involved.
The information that is provided generally is not even that accurate. Partners at the smaller law firms in the downtown Toronto area break $300K, but that's rare.

I'm genuinely surprised that a junior partner has crossed $200K. That doesn't really pass the smell test for me, but with good connections, I guess anything is possible. At age 26, making junior partner is reflective of how easily a firm dishes out that title. Courtroom litigation experience is important for almost all partners for the big law firms in Toronto, irregardless of where they end up in their law careers.

At 26, they've managed to what, brush their teeth? :)

By age 26 though...that's almost unheard of for Bay Street firms. (the big ones, that is)
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
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Jul 12, 2008
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angryaudifanatic wrote: The information that is provided generally is not even that accurate. Partners at the smaller law firms in the downtown Toronto area break $300K, but that's rare.

I'm genuinely surprised that a junior partner has crossed $200K. That doesn't really pass the smell test for me, but with good connections, I guess anything is possible. At age 26, making junior partner is reflective of how easily a firm dishes out that title. Courtroom litigation experience is important for almost all partners for the big law firms in Toronto, irregardless of where they end up in their law careers.

At 26, they've managed to what, brush their teeth? :)

By age 26 though...that's almost unheard of for Bay Street firms. (the big ones, that is)
The late 26 year old is a first year associate with the firm who has finished articling. See some example links

https://www.zsa.ca/salary-guide/
https://lawstudents.ca/forums/topic/444 ... ent-592812
Newbie
Jan 15, 2017
68 posts
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The solution is easy, the process is hard.

Hustle and persevere.

No one is entitled to a job. Like you already mentioned, there is plenty of competition and not enough jobs. The only solution is to out work your peers, build a broader network, and have a bit of luck.
I didn't go to law school, but know many who did law+mba. Most of those folks made deans list, and ended up not practicing law. There's plenty of uses for the degree besides being a lawyer.
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Nov 10, 2018
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badmus wrote: The late 26 year old is a first year associate
Ah. Thanks for the clarification.
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
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Aug 22, 2011
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The real struggle is finding an articling gig!
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Nov 10, 2018
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vkizzle wrote: The real struggle is finding an articling gig!
It's funny, and not funny, that if law school applicants knew this, the application rate, I believe, would drop substantially.

A lot of freshman law kids these days think they are the king of the world. Oh that ego gets deflated...quick!
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.
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Aug 22, 2011
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angryaudifanatic wrote: It's funny, and not funny, that if law school applicants knew this, the application rate, I believe, would drop substantially.

A lot of freshman law kids these days think they are the king of the world. Oh that ego gets deflated...quick!
I learned a lot from a previous co-op student (one of the top graduate from Queens) and was on the brink of self destruction, as he couldn't find any local firms to hire him.
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Nov 10, 2018
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vkizzle wrote: I learned a lot from a previous co-op student (one of the top graduate from Queens) and was on the brink of self destruction, as he couldn't find any local firms to hire him.
It is a typical experience. The upside is it teaches these hotshot kids a dose of real life humility. Don't get me wrong, they typically lose it within a second after passing the bar.

Don't get me started. Our reputation is bad for a reason.
For legal topics and discussions, the opinion, guidance, and thoughts provided are my own and are not considered to be legal advice, in any manner.

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