Investing

Who sells pooled funds, and how to buy them?

  • Last Updated:
  • Feb 11th, 2017 9:32 am
Tags:
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto

Who sells pooled funds, and how to buy them?

Seeing some discussions about pooled mutual funds that have low (almost 0, or around 0.2%) MER. Which financial institutions have them? And how can you buy them?

It sounds like those pooled funds are much better than other MFs with 2.0+ % MER.
17 replies
Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
26720 posts
3577 upvotes
Montreal
In short, you are still getting lubed and buggered. Instead of astroglide, now it's champagne and caviar
Deal Fanatic
May 22, 2003
6412 posts
3362 upvotes
Vancouver
I agree, if you want a low-cost MF, why not just buy ETFs?
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto
Jermyzy wrote: I agree, if you want a low-cost MF, why not just buy ETFs?
ETFs are passive, following indices. MF are mostly more actively managed.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Aug 8, 2012
10198 posts
4006 upvotes
BC
Cavegirl wrote: ETFs are passive, following indices. MF are mostly more actively managed.
There *are* actively managed ETFs as well.

e.g. https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individua ... r-etfs.htm
"Vanguard may be best known for indexing, but we've managed active investments since our founding in 1975. Today we're one of the world's largest active managers, with more than $1 trillion in active funds under management."
POLL: How frequent is your RRSP-matching?
Plastiq: Pay any bill with credit card for 0-2.5% fee (help meet min spending and keep old cards active!)
Rewards program transfer times (e.g. SPG->Aeroplan, Marriott->SPG, Amex MR->SPG...)
Deal Fanatic
Feb 15, 2006
8863 posts
3357 upvotes
Toronto
ace604 wrote: There *are* actively managed ETFs as well.

e.g. https://www.vanguardcanada.ca/individua ... r-etfs.htm
"Vanguard may be best known for indexing, but we've managed active investments since our founding in 1975. Today we're one of the world's largest active managers, with more than $1 trillion in active funds under management."
There are also passive index mutual funds too.

But most MF are actively managed with high MER, and most ETFs are passive index funds with low MERs. Actively managed ETFs are in the very minority, and have higher MERs.
Deal Guru
User avatar
Aug 8, 2012
10198 posts
4006 upvotes
BC
Arrgh wrote: There are also passive index mutual funds too.

But most MF are actively managed with high MER, and most ETFs are passive index funds with low MERs. Actively managed ETFs are in the very minority, and have higher MERs.
Yes, but Cavgirl already knew that:
Cavegirl wrote: ETFs are passive, following indices. MF are mostly more actively managed.
Also, if you measure by assets under management, "mostly" might change :)

Sure there are more unique active mutual funds then passive ... but where is more money invested?

Anyways, my only point was that:
"ETFs are passive, following indices."
... is not correct.

Fees are typically higher for active yes (vs passive ETF).
Active ETF fee > Passive ETF fee
Active MF fee > Passive MF fee
(certainly within same fund company anyways, but possibly not across companies if you have a really low-fee active ETF like Vanguard it might be cheaper than some other company high-fee rip-off passive fees :))

If you want active though, there *are* active ETFs, and as illustrated by my Vanguard link, they can be fairly low-fee ... so you can save on active fees with an active ETF vs many higher-fee active mutual funds.

It of course depends on what investment strategy or fund manager you want to choose.

Anyways. Points:
1) active ETFs exist.
2) fees on active ETFs can be lower than MF
POLL: How frequent is your RRSP-matching?
Plastiq: Pay any bill with credit card for 0-2.5% fee (help meet min spending and keep old cards active!)
Rewards program transfer times (e.g. SPG->Aeroplan, Marriott->SPG, Amex MR->SPG...)
Deal Fanatic
Feb 15, 2006
8863 posts
3357 upvotes
Toronto
ace604 wrote: Yes, but Cavgirl already knew that:

Also, if you measure by assets under management, "mostly" might change :)

Sure there are more unique active mutual funds then passive ... but where is more money invested?

Anyways, my only point was that:
"ETFs are passive, following indices."
... is not correct.

Fees are typically higher for active yes (vs passive ETF).
Active ETF fee > Passive ETF fee
Active MF fee > Passive MF fee
(certainly within same fund company anyways, but possibly not across companies if you have a really low-fee active ETF like Vanguard it might be cheaper than some other company high-fee rip-off passive fees :))

If you want active though, there *are* active ETFs, and as illustrated by my Vanguard link, they can be fairly low-fee ... so you can save on active fees with an active ETF vs many higher-fee active mutual funds.

It of course depends on what investment strategy or fund manager you want to choose.

Anyways. Points:
1) active ETFs exist.
2) fees on active ETFs can be lower than MF
Yes we all know and agree on a lot of those things. There are benefits of the pooled funds that have 0 or very low MER.

Back to the OP's original question, how to buy them (i.e. what's the criteria to be "high value" client) at the various financial institutions.
Deal Fanatic
Feb 15, 2006
8863 posts
3357 upvotes
Toronto
superfresh89 wrote: The criteria is usually a minimum investment of $100K, plus there is an annual fee of 1-2%. This was already answered in the first two replies.
It's not. Read again. BTW the 2nd reply talked about getting lubed. Nobody else talked about what the minimum investment is $100k.

CIBC Imperial Service starts at $100k, but does that mean you can buy CIBC pooled funds with that, or do you need more?

With BMO it's $500k to start, but they like to have more. Would like to know about other banks.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto
Had asked TD. Their private pooled funds are only accessible to clients investing with their private investment counsels.

They used to required at least $1M in the portfolio, but this year lowered it to $750k. The MER in those pooled funds are about 0.02%.

They don't have links to show those private series pooled funds.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto
superfresh89 wrote: With a $1MM portfolio, you're better off using a fee-based advisor like Wood Gundy. The fees would be similar (~1% annually), but you'd have access to stocks, bonds and ETFs rather than only mutual funds.
The TD Private Invest Counsel, or Private Invest Advisor, all have access to stocks, bonds, ETFs, etc.

Wood Gundy is only a brokerage. The TD PIC combines private investment, plus private banking and all other stuff that CIBC/Woody Gundy doesn't have.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto
superfresh89 wrote: What do you mean by only a brokerage?

Wood Gundy clients get access to some of the most well known investment advisors in the industry. They also get their own version of private banking with the Wood Gundy AAA account. Wood Gundy also has two types of advisors available... Traditional fee-based investment advisor, as well as advisors that act as fiduciaries.
CIBC/Woody Gundy does not have private banking. Other banks are bigger and doing better, and would argue they have better investment management and wealth advisors.

CIBC/Woody Gundy is one of the smaller ones. For a long time, CIBC is known as a revolving door, lots of turn overs. Woody Gundy is not doing as well as others, they are cutting and re-structuring.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto
superfresh89 wrote: I've met lots of people with CIBC Private Banking...

I think CIBC Private Banking is another tier up entirely... not the same as Wood Gundy. Minimum 5MM or 10MM invested.

Who told you about WG? I was under the total opposite impression of WG - of the Big 5, I'd be most confident using a WG advisor. I find RBC/TD/BMO advisors are sleezy and Scotia is just too small and inconvenient. You could be right about them not doing as well as the others though.

Either way... Back on topic.. regardless of which institution... It still boils down the the same crap. I would never invest with any of the big banks offerings, private banking or not. For sure no bank is getting my money just so I can buy their mutual funds.
Earlier you were saying Woody Gundy has private banking, but they don't. WG cannot issue mortgage, cannot do many things a bank can, let along private banking.

Now you say CIBC private banking. But CIBC doesn't have PB, they have Imperial Service.

You better get your facts straight.

On the one hand you are saying WG has the best advisors, but OTOH you would not trust any of the big banks advisors. And those advisors are not just buying mutal funds, they can buy just about everything, except private pooled funds that need to go through their private invest counsels.

Who told me about WG (that they're not doing well, is cutting, is re-structuring), a WG VP. Well, they have lots of VPs, but still a VP.
Deal Expert
Feb 29, 2008
26720 posts
3577 upvotes
Montreal
Cavegirl wrote: Had asked TD. Their private pooled funds are only accessible to clients investing with their private investment counsels.

They used to required at least $1M in the portfolio, but this year lowered it to $750k. The MER in those pooled funds are about 0.02%.

They don't have links to show those private series pooled funds.
Did you ask what their annual fee and custodial fee is?
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto
superfresh89 wrote: CIBC has many divisions and departments... Imperial Service is for clients with approx $100K+ to invest - they only sell pooled funds and 3rd party mutual funds. Then there's WG, a full service brokerage with fee-based and fiduciary advisors - 500K-1MM+ would be their target audience. There IS CIBC Private Banking... It's for clients with $5-10MM+. Even if WG doesn't do mortgages, they can easily arrange for a mortgage for you thru their Private Banking or branch channels.

I never said I don't trust any of the banks. I said I wouldn't waste my money paying fees to any of them. I did say WG has the last sleazy sales people out of the ones I've dealt with.
Again, WG does NOT have private banking nor can they arrange mortgages. To get mortgage you go to CIBC, not WG.

So you are not saying you don't trust those bank advisors. But you say they're all sleazy, just CIBC is the least sleazy. Well, when most of us say some people are sleazy, we mean we don't trust them. But you trust sleazy people. Ok, whatever you say.
mr_raider wrote: Did you ask what their annual fee and custodial fee is?
Yes. TD Private Investment Advisors on the brokerage side charge a little lower, a % of your holding, and they don't have access to pooled funds.

TD Private Investment Counsels charge a little more, starting a bit over 1%, and go down with each increment more of holding. They are salaried, and have access to pooled funds.
Deal Fanatic
Nov 22, 2015
5781 posts
5284 upvotes
Cavegirl wrote: Again, WG does NOT have private banking nor can they arrange mortgages. To get mortgage you go to CIBC, not WG.l
Again, CIBC and WG are the same company. If you need a mortgage, and you only have a Wood Gundy advsior, they can set up a meeting with a mortgage advisor for you. They can also assist with more complicated manuvers such as holding your own mortgage in your RRSP.

CIBC Private Banking also works closely (sometimes in the same meeting) with Wood Gundy to private private banking services in tandem.

https://www.cibc.com/ca/private-wealth- ... nking.html

Also, it's 'Wood Gundy', not Woody Gundy lmao.
[OP]
Deal Addict
Oct 7, 2011
1074 posts
373 upvotes
Toronto
superfresh89 wrote: Again, CIBC and WG are the same company. If you need a mortgage, and you only have a Wood Gundy advsior, they can set up a meeting with a mortgage advisor for you. They can also assist with more complicated manuvers such as holding your own mortgage in your RRSP.
So you just confirmed that Wood Gundy CANNOT set up a mortgage for you. They have to refer you to CIBC to do mortgage. WG is a brokerage, not a bank, they are smaller, not doing too well, and is cutting. But at least you trust them more than others, even though you still consider them sleazy.
Deal Fanatic
Nov 22, 2015
5781 posts
5284 upvotes
Yes, that's what I've said from the beginning.

Top