Ongoing Deal Discussion

[Always] WOW ---- New and used cars from US up to 30% cheaper - Read post #1

Poll: Are Canadian cars overpriced

  • Total votes: 335. You have voted on this poll.
I have no voice, Canadian Dealers/Manufacturers are taking advantage of the Canadian consumer
 
112
33%
In most cases, new cars purchased in the US are almost always thousands cheaper
 
149
44%
I owe no one a living, competition is good. Thank you NAFTA!
 
61
18%
With the exchange rate factored in, Canadian prices are roughly the same
 
6
2%
With the exchange rate and financing, Canadian prices are cheaper - Buy Canadian!
 
7
2%

Poll ended at Dec 28th, 2006 1:46 pm

Newbie
Jul 10, 2007
36 posts
Kingsville
GougingCarCartelGroup wrote: I got someone in Illinois that could get it. Problem is that i'd have to pay their tax, plus duty, plus gst/pst.......
Not al states are like Illinois.... see http://www.carburner.com for a partial list of states ( looking for more input on this wiki ... )

If you have transported you should avoid tax -- but best way to avoid double tax -- buy from NEW YORK state dealer ... or PA ... or KY .... or

Greg
Member
Oct 20, 2007
374 posts
127 upvotes
Orillia, ON
I believe the Tribeca rebate is $7,000 for the regular 5 pass model and $8,000 for the 7 pass with NAV if you opt not to take Subaru finance options.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/news/071204-5.htm

December 4, 2007

Subaru Canada to give any future price reductions to December purchasers


Mississauga, Ontario - Subaru Canada Inc. has announced its Subaru Price Commitment, providing peace of mind for consumers purchasing 2008 Subaru vehicles in December. Effective immediately, Subaru Canada will protect the transaction value on all purchases in the month of December 2007 until March 1, 2008.

In addition, Subaru is offering leasing and financing from 0.5 per cent for 24 months on approved credit, along with stackable cash credits of up to $2,000. For consumers who choose not to use the Subaru-supported lease or finance programs, a cash credit of up to $8,000 is available from Subaru dealers.

"This is our way of passing the advantage of a strong Canadian dollar along to our customers," said Katsuhiro Yokoyama, president and CEO of Subaru Canada. "In fact, we're going even further with this commitment. If we are able to offer a national program between now and March 1st which is better than the current December program, Subaru will write a cheque for the difference to anyone who purchases a Subaru in December."
Newbie
Oct 21, 2007
35 posts
Montreal
Thank you for your electronic correspondence of November 29, 2007 to the Competition Bureau (the "Bureau") concerning restrictions on importing cars from the U.S. and the difference in car prices between Canada and the U.S.

The Bureau is responsible for enforcing the Competition Act (the "Act"). The purpose of the Act is to maintain and encourage competition in Canada in order to promote economic efficiency in the Canadian economy and to provide consumers with competitive prices and product choices. As a statute of general application, it does not attempt to regulate individual transactions between buyers and sellers. Rather, the Act seeks to develop and maintain the conditions necessary for a competitive marketplace by defining a number of anti-competitive practices. Some of these practices are prohibited as criminal offences. Other practices, perceived to be potentially but not necessarily anti-competitive, are subject to review and remedial action by the Competition Tribunal (the"Tribunal"). The Act does not provide the Bureau with any regulatory authority to decide the law or to compel entities to adopt a particular course of conduct in respect of their activities.

Businesses are generally free to set their own prices, at whatever levels the market will bear. High prices or higher prices in one place than another, in and of themselves, are not contrary to the Act. High prices are a concern when they are the result of anti-competitive conduct subject to the Act.

The Act recognizes that suppliers should be free to determine how best to distribute their products. Market restriction, where a supplier requires its authorized dealers to sell only within a specific geographic area, is generally permissible. Pursuant to section 77 of the Act, the Tribunal can prohibit market restriction where it is likely to substantially lessen competition in a market as a whole. In this case, the practice only restricts imports of the manufacturer's own vehicles and does not restrict competition among the relatively large number of vehicle manufacturers in the overall market. Therefore, the market restriction is unlikely to result in a substantial lessening of competition in the market as a whole.

The conspiracy provision, section 45 of the Competition Act, prohibits agreements among competitors that unduly lessen competition, such as price fixing arrangements. However, high prices or higher prices in one place than another are not, in and of themselves, evidence of an agreement, particularly when there are plausible alternative explanations. The case law surrounding section 45 makes it clear that the practice of firms simply following their competitors' initiatives does not constitute a conspiracy offence. In any event, the section does not apply to the unilateral conduct of individual firms or to arrangements among related companies. Furthermore, supply arrangements used to establish a distribution network, such as the agreements that suppliers typically have with their franchised dealers, are not something that would be viewed as a conspiracy. Agreements among competitors who sell competing brands are far more likely to constitute a conspiracy offence than arrangements involving businesses that all deal in the same brands of a product, especially when they face strong competition from other brands in a market.

Accordingly, this matter does not warrant further examination.

It should be noted, in any event, that the Act only applies to conduct in Canada, and so may not apply to arrangements that suppliers have with their dealers in the U.S.

In your attached correspondence, you also raise an issue regarding NAFTA. You may wish to contact the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade at enqserv@dfait-maeci.gc.ca or 1-800-267-8376 regarding this matter.

Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention.

Christopher Broadbent
T
Member
May 30, 2006
296 posts
13 upvotes
postdotcom wrote: I'm going to pick up my truck this Friday in Ohio. Already faxed the MSO. Reading from some web sites saying the Detroit US custom is difficult to find or access. Anyone had experience exporting car through Detroit? Any tips would be greatly appreciated.
Check on carburner.com....they even have a google sat map of US Customs at Ambassador Bridge
Member
Oct 14, 2007
212 posts
Barrie Ontario
I had an interesting discussion tonight with my brother about BMW...as his 545 is coming up for lease return. He wants an X5. The problem with the X5 from the US is that BMW Canada wants to extract about $4,000 for letters and conversion costs (flipping the switch on the computer). Which is extortion. We were looking at bringing one in from the US...but it appears to be too costly. After some discussion we came to the same conclusion I did....pick up one of these cheap Tribeca's from the US and drive that until the market settles down. I think the Audi price drop is the beginning...if you were planning on buying an Audi, you're going to sit on your hands until the price drops some more now. Economic theory says that is supposed to happen...people won't buy today if they expect the price to be lower tomorrow. The car industry may be in for a real shakedown now.
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Apr 19, 2005
9160 posts
501 upvotes
Toronto
[quote="TucDream" post_id="6022564" time="1196533682" user_id="123947"]Thanks to MM for starting the thread, all those who blazed the trail before me, LostHorizon, as well as Zach & Becca at Eastside Subaru.

The only real glitch I had to do with BC Provincial Inspection. It is required in BC for a new vehicle according to BC
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need below items in GTA:
- CT, HD, FS, BB, gas GCs

FS: Freedom Mobile credit
Deal Fanatic
User avatar
Apr 19, 2005
9160 posts
501 upvotes
Toronto
scouzi wrote: My Subaru Canada delership treats me like a customer. Gives me a free hand wash coupon with every oil change.

They affix the next service sticker on windshield in miles. I like the new Imprezza hatchback. I might buy it in Canada.

However, I haven't had any warranty work to be done yet.
Would you mind to share (or PM) the name of the dealership?

Thanks
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Need below items in GTA:
- CT, HD, FS, BB, gas GCs

FS: Freedom Mobile credit
Jr. Member
Jun 24, 2007
138 posts
orion747 wrote: Can you give us an idea as to how much this affects pricing, either in dollars or % terms? I was under the impression there were no cash rebates in effect for the 08 Tribecas anyways.
How much.. Well..
Let's look at an outback 2.5i for example.
currently.. invoice is 23,745.. Lets say I did 150 under, $23,595 - minus $1500 rebate - your price is $22,095.

after this change, I will probably price this car at 25,745 (about 500 over US MSRP) and there will be no rebate from subaru so... your price would be $25,745. Thats a price hike of $3650 for canadian buyers versus US buyers.
Compare that to the canadian 2.5i (which does not have heated seats but is otherwise... fairly similar I think) at around $31... It now has $4000 in rebate if you are a cash customer bring it down to 27. US price is still cheaper but the gap is certainly a lot less on that particular model.
Member
Aug 12, 2003
451 posts
28 upvotes
Toronto
[quote="bluemule999" post_id="6039376" time="1196813752" user_id="121955"]Thank you for your electronic correspondence of November 29, 2007 to the Competition Bureau (the "Bureau") concerning restrictions on importing cars from the U.S. and the difference in car prices between Canada and the U.S.

The Bureau is responsible for enforcing the Competition Act (the "Act"). The purpose of the Act is to maintain and encourage competition in Canada in order to promote economic efficiency in the Canadian economy and to provide consumers with competitive prices and product choices. As a statute of general application, it does not attempt to regulate individual transactions between buyers and sellers. Rather, the Act seeks to develop and maintain the conditions necessary for a competitive marketplace by defining a number of anti-competitive practices. Some of these practices are prohibited as criminal offences. Other practices, perceived to be potentially but not necessarily anti-competitive, are subject to review and remedial action by the Competition Tribunal (the"Tribunal"). The Act does not provide the Bureau with any regulatory authority to decide the law or to compel entities to adopt a particular course of conduct in respect of their activities.

Businesses are generally free to set their own prices, at whatever levels the market will bear. High prices or higher prices in one place than another, in and of themselves, are not contrary to the Act. High prices are a concern when they are the result of anti-competitive conduct subject to the Act.

The Act recognizes that suppliers should be free to determine how best to distribute their products. Market restriction, where a supplier requires its authorized dealers to sell only within a specific geographic area, is generally permissible. Pursuant to section 77 of the Act, the Tribunal can prohibit market restriction where it is likely to substantially lessen competition in a market as a whole. In this case, the practice only restricts imports of the manufacturer's own vehicles and does not restrict competition among the relatively large number of vehicle manufacturers in the overall market. Therefore, the market restriction is unlikely to result in a substantial lessening of competition in the market as a whole.

The conspiracy provision, section 45 of the Competition Act, prohibits agreements among competitors that unduly lessen competition, such as price fixing arrangements. However, high prices or higher prices in one place than another are not, in and of themselves, evidence of an agreement, particularly when there are plausible alternative explanations. The case law surrounding section 45 makes it clear that the practice of firms simply following their competitors' initiatives does not constitute a conspiracy offence. In any event, the section does not apply to the unilateral conduct of individual firms or to arrangements among related companies. Furthermore, supply arrangements used to establish a distribution network, such as the agreements that suppliers typically have with their franchised dealers, are not something that would be viewed as a conspiracy. Agreements among competitors who sell competing brands are far more likely to constitute a conspiracy offence than arrangements involving businesses that all deal in the same brands of a product, especially when they face strong competition from other brands in a market.

Accordingly, this matter does not warrant further examination.

It should be noted, in any event, that the Act only applies to conduct in Canada, and so may not apply to arrangements that suppliers have with their dealers in the U.S.

In your attached correspondence, you also raise an issue regarding NAFTA. You may wish to contact the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade at enqserv@dfait-maeci.gc.ca or 1-800-267-8376 regarding this matter.

Thank you for bringing your concerns to our attention.

Christopher Broadbent
T
Newbie
User avatar
May 23, 2007
62 posts
Toronto
I don't think there is only 1500-2000 gross profit per vehicle. There are complicated systems of manufacturer rebates behind the scene that even sales reps don't see. This is true for just about every industry that wanted to hide the real cost of goods. You have to be a financial analyst working for the company in order to understand them.
jed wrote: Just to get things accurate here - I was in the business (GM dealer) for 13 yrs, and thats 7 yrs ago. At that time, a $2000 gross profit was not the norm, in fact, would have been wonderful if you could get it but it didn't happen much. I did not sell @ MSRP.

Canadian dealers MUCH higher markup? Perhaps markup (diff between MSRP and invoice) but again, I don't know many guys who can get MSRP in their sales. More like you're getting about a $800 to $1500 gross, depending upon the car/truck, if you're lucky. G5's - anywhere from $300 to $800 over cost.

Imagine stocking a $70000 truck (lots of them nowadays), paying interest on it while it sits waiting to sell, getting a $1500 gross, paying expenses, lights, electricity, heating, fixed costs, interest, and salesperson commission from that. Almost like computer retailers.

I'm not endearing anyone to the dealers, lets just be accurate in our discussion. GM sells more in CA than they do in all of Canada. And, I was told that the warranty costs are up to 50% higher here. Again, I'm not for the current pricing structure - I was around in 97-2000 when curbers were grabbing CDN cars/trucks/parts and shipping them South for HUGE profits.

Manufacturers got themselves into one he77 of a pickle by raising Cdn prices, so when the dollar got to parity, you know the rest.
Newbie
Nov 11, 2007
23 posts
Winnipeg
What a great county...high taxes to pay for people to write letters like you received from the Competition Bureau.

IN THE US: the automakers have to be more careful what they are doing...the Subaru letter to its us dealers on the carswithoutborders site is very carefully written.

from Robert Bissett post www.carswithoutborders.com


http://www.usdoj.gov/atr/contact/newcase.htm

as follows:

Antitrust Laws and You
How to File a Complaint
How to Contact Us
Confidentiality Policy and Privacy Policy
Leniency Policies

Newbie
Oct 11, 2007
64 posts
4 upvotes
Manitoba
[QUOTE]How much.. Well..
Let's look at an outback 2.5i for example.
currently.. invoice is 23,745.. Lets say I did 150 under, $23,595 - minus $1500 rebate - your price is $22,095.

after this change, I will probably price this car at 25,745 (about 500 over US MSRP) and there will be no rebate from subaru so... your price would be $25,745. Thats a price hike of $3650 for canadian buyers versus US buyers. [/QUOTE]

I understand why the 1500 rebate disappeared, but why did you go from charging slightly lower than invoice to slightly higher than MSRP ?
Newbie
Sep 5, 2007
57 posts
4 upvotes
Vancouver
jwstewart wrote: I understand why the 1500 rebate disappeared, but why did you go from charging slightly lower than invoice to slightly higher than MSRP ?
I think that is because SOA no longer gives incentive and holdback to the dealer for selling this car( since it's to a Canadian). which eliminates the holdback, so the new holdback price for the dealer is actually the invoice price. Mrsp - Invoice = the amount that the dealer is going to get for this sales? Also without incentives they are less willing to sell to Canadian because it will not help them hit any of the sales goals. I believe there is still some bargain room between mrsp and invoice, but I don't think they would go much lower than Mrsp since they don't get holdback or incentives.

Actually I am not sure if they don't get both or jsut one of them. But I am pretty sure This is why Zach said it was suppose to be that price.
Deal Addict
User avatar
Nov 2, 2003
4689 posts
811 upvotes
SK
jwstewart wrote: I understand why the 1500 rebate disappeared, but why did you go from charging slightly lower than invoice to slightly higher than MSRP ?
There will be no incentive for the dealer to sell to Canadians. The sale will not count for any bonuses, awards, volume rebates, etc. Basically it will be a good will sale and dealers could charge what they want because they will make nothing. I'm not saying all dealers will get greedy but some will.
shopper-X
Newbie
Nov 11, 2007
23 posts
Winnipeg
www.carswithoutborders.com

These are the guys that need to make a decision to let the CWB cars in...

Send them a quick e-mail My humble suggestion...."I am a Canadian who supports your allowing the immediate approval for importation of the vehicles of www.carswithoutborders.com owners. Transport Canada has had five years to harmonize regulations. Why has that not happened? It has cost Canadians billions and resulted in older and less green cars on our roads."

The Honourable Rona Ambrose, M.P. Ambrose. [EMAIL="Rparl.gc.ca"]Rparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable John Baird, P.C., President of the Treasury Board Baird. [EMAIL="Jparl.gc.ca"]Jparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Maxime Bernier, P.C., Minister of Industry and Minister of Foreign Affairs [EMAIL="Bernier.Mparl.gc.ca"]Bernier.Mparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Lawrence Cannon, M.P., Minister of Transport, Infrastructure and Communities [EMAIL="Cannon.Lparl.gc.ca"]Cannon.Lparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable David Emerson, P.C., Minister of International Trade Emerson.[EMAIL="Dparl.gc.ca"]Dparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable James Flaherty, P.C., Minister of Finance [EMAIL="Flaherty.Jparl.gc.ca"]Flaherty.Jparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

Mr. Steven Fletcher, M.P. [EMAIL="Fletcher.Sparl.gc.ca"]Fletcher.Sparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Right Honourable Stephen Harper, Prime Minister of Canada [EMAIL="Harper.Sparl.gc.ca"]Harper.Sparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Robert Nicholson, P.C., Minister of Justice and Attorney General of Canada [EMAIL="Nicholson.Rparl.gc.ca"]Nicholson.Rparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Bev Oda, MP [EMAIL="Oda.Bparl.gc.ca"][/EMAIL]

The Honourable Jim Prentice, M.P., Minister of Industry Prentice. [EMAIL="Jparl.gc.ca"]Jparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Charles Strahl, M.P., Deputy Speaker [EMAIL="Strahl.Cparl.gc.ca"]Strahl.Cparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Vic Toews, P.C., President of the Treasury Board [EMAIL="Toews.Vparl.gc.ca"]Toews.Vparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Peter Van Loan M.P., President of the Queen's Privy Council [EMAIL="VanLoan.Pparl.gc.ca"]VanLoan.Pparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Gordon O'Connor, M.P., Minister of National Revenue OconnGparl.gc.ca

The Honourable Christian Paradis, Secretary of State (Agriculture) [EMAIL="ParadCparl.gc.ca"]ParadCparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Jay Hill, Chief Government Whip [EMAIL="HillJparl.gc.ca"]HillJparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Senator Marjory LeBreton, Secretary of State (Seniors) [EMAIL="lebremsen.parl.gc.ca"]lebremsen.parl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]

The Honourable Peter MacKay, Minister of National Defence [EMAIL="MackaPparl.gc.ca"]MackaPparl.gc.ca[/EMAIL]
Sr. Member
User avatar
Nov 3, 2004
781 posts
7 upvotes
Toronto
[QUOTE]the Subaru corporate letter[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]It has come to our attention that a growing number of dealers are conducting an increasing amount of sales outside the United States.[/QUOTE]

So, they have increased their sale, now stop that (????)

[QUOTE]sales into your AOR represent the best opportunity to build a loyal owner base to fuel long term sales, service business and dealer profitability.[/QUOTE]

So it's ok for Van Bortel to sell to ppl in Florida, but not to Canadians in London who are less than 2 hours away????? Does that make any sense?
Deal Addict
Apr 14, 2004
1190 posts
175 upvotes
Montreal
shopper-X wrote: There will be no incentive for the dealer to sell to Canadians. The sale will not count for any bonuses, awards, volume rebates, etc. Basically it will be a good will sale and dealers could charge what they want because they will make nothing. I'm not saying all dealers will get greedy but some will.
There is no such thing as volume rebates in the car business. Every dealer pays the same price - big or small.
Deal Addict
Apr 14, 2004
1190 posts
175 upvotes
Montreal
scouzi wrote: There is no such thing as volume rebates in the car business. Every dealer pays the same price - big or small.
Ok My bad. I guess you meant volume sales bonuses.

The Subaru also stated that written consent was needed by SOA. What's up with that?
Newbie
Sep 5, 2007
57 posts
4 upvotes
Vancouver
Hi everyone in this thread.
Some of you may remember I went down to Zach at Eastside to buy a 2008 Foreter 2.5 Sports XT. So here is the story

- Late Oct- express my interest in a 07 wrx wagon, but was told they are hard to find with a AT, so gave up after 2 day of looking
- Early Sep- looked at cars101.com and saw the forester sports and loved it. start getting quotes from different dealers( starting with Zach on RFD pm)
- start to bargain with Zach and Joe at carter Subaru, at last Joe gave me a great deal. But Zach asked his manager and beat the already low price. So Ordered it from Zach.
- Oct 25th- placed deposit of $400 over phone with credit card #s
-Oct 26-Nov 15- Waiting....more Waiting....Waiting
-Nov 16 The car finally arrived!
-Nov 17-24- multiple emails on adding option to the car and what I need when I get there, + plan the trip + make sure hZach have sent the documents to the US border
-Nov 24- booked "Quick Coach" bus ticket online and when down to Seattle DT from YVR. Cost about $35 each( there was 3 of us), maybe more expensive then Greyhound but the bus seem much newer and more comfy. Arrived at around 6.
- Nov 25- rented a car to drive to Eastside Subaru, and saw our car the first time. Test drove it, have a look at all the required documents and left for some shopping at Seattle premium outlet.
- Nov 26- Zach came to the hotel at 830 in he morning to pick us up and drove to the dealer. Have all the paper work done at the dealer, gave them our bank draft to verify it was real. Off we go.
-we arrived at the us border at 2:30( stopped for more shopping and lunch at Bellis Fair), park the car on the side and walk to the export office(not hard to find at all. Went in told the officer we are exporting a car, gave them the required documents and he didn't even look at them and just stamped it. This whole process took less than 30 seconds!
-then at the Canadian side declare we are importing the car and also bought $1000 worth of stuff, told us to park in front of the office, which was already packed with new cars. went in, had to get a number for importing cars. we were #18, and they have just called #4. We waited for almost 3hrs. Finally a officer did our form1 and off we went to pay for the pst and duty.
-Got home and went online to pay for my riv $206. and faxed form 1, recall letter and title to them. Then went on RFD and see people saying ALL FORESTER are now INADMISSIBLE. Panic.
More PANIC. post in dozen of places for helps. PANIC PANIC.
Nov 27- called riv, they say the car is INADMISSIBLE! PANIC
Email Zach about the problem. He can't help with it.
Nov 28- looked into the recall letter. and FOUND THE MFD IS AUG 30!!! Immediately phone riv, bitching about my car was made in AUG why isn't it admissible. They didn't trust me, had them looked into the my files and tell them where the MFD IS located.
Nov 29- at noon I got my FORM 2 in Email and off to Crappytires I went, but they were full, at 4?? even if they closed at 6, told me to come back tomorrow.
Nov 30- went in the morning and finally got it checked, also had to pay hundred something dollar for the BC inspection. But they helped me fax the form 2 to riv, pretty nice. Call insurance person, told me to wait till Monday as more license would be in.
Dec 3- finally picked out my fav # and FINALLY have my car register and insured LEGALLY in BC.

Break-down: It was quite scary when I saw my car on the inadmissible list that night. But other than that everything went smoother than I expected. Would I do it again? With the savings, H3ll ya! Although Subaru Canada does not sell this trim in Canada. I could estimate that I saved myself around $10000. total after extra warranty,tax, protection package, extra accessories and car came under 34000. With the Canadian trim, It would cost us around 48000. Since it is not exactly the same, I only stated my saving to about 10K. I would say I gave a big discount to the Canadian dealer already. lol

A HUGE thanks goes to everyone in this forum, that help me directly and indirectly with my purchase. THANK YOU GUYS. Loving my new Ride
I will post a pic or 2 up later when I have time.
Jr. Member
Nov 11, 2007
123 posts
27 upvotes
Hi there,
Finally ready to get the Outback.
I am in Toronto and ready to get a quote from Northtown, West Herr and Van Bortel. (Manchester is too far away)

Wonder if you can help me:

Anybody has the the direct number for Jesse Bestine at Northtown Subaru and

Any person and contact number from West Herr Subaru that you can recommend?

Any other dealers I should consider?
Do you have any tips about getting the best quote?
Looking for Outback 2.5i Limited no accesories.

Thank you very much in advance.
Cheers.

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